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racprops
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Joined: 30 Oct 2006
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Location: Phoenix AZ

PostPosted: Sun May 16, 2010 5:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

One thing is I am some what limited as to posting pictures here.

And I do think we might be better off talking off the site about these things.

So if you email me I can then send pictures of the differances and so on and talk more freely with less PC ingauged.

Rich


jameth wrote:
EDIT:

Jameth mate, its got nothing to do with questioning Rich's ability to build gorgeous pieces (again I've said on MANY occasions we owe him and others like him - SID included - a debt of gratitude) but it has everything to do with providing a good workable kit for the money anyone has spent.

Lets not get into the debate on Sid vs RAC because that is not the issue here….

Regards

MARK


The whole Sidkit Vs. RAC don't bring it up thing is nonsense. As a new member I am really not up on everything that happened in the past and it's really not relevant. I asked about how one prop compares to another. That is a perfectly reasonable question for a prop discussion board. Key word being discussion. Even though I did not want to I did try going through old posts and all I got was drama.

I will ask any question I see fit to. If you don't like it don't answer. But I spend all day helping kids knowone else cares about. I put up with a lot and when I come home If I want information about a prop I will ask and knowone is going to tell me not to. Well they might but I'm not going to listen.

Rich does not have any problem discussing the actual differences in these two gun props with me and I don't need or want to know anything about the other stuff. Several Sidkit owners have also discussed it with me.

If anyone has a problem discussing it, tuff. This is a discussion board. I compared the two guns and offered my opinion on the result. This is relevant since we are discussing the quality of these kits and so far I am the only person talking who has a deluxe in their hand. My opinion might be relevant.

Okay back on topic. Sorry for the detour.[/quote]
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jameth
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PostPosted: Sun May 16, 2010 5:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm good and it's all good. I was just saying it's a legite question and knowone here has the right to say certain questions can't be asked.

I got the simple few answers I needed and as this is a brand new version of the Coyle there really has not been any discussion about it compared to other blasters which is totally legitimate.

No member should have to go through ungodly amounts of archive posts to have a few simple questions answered.

New Coyle-a little more accurate using letest reference material. Harder steel. Slight difference in size. No biggie

That's all I asked for or needed and I really don't think there is anything wrong with somone asking.

All props, no drama. That's my new slogan

"Enough of this useless banter"-Great line, bad movie

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jameth
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PostPosted: Sun May 16, 2010 5:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Rich,
You mentioned a Bulldog for $300

What actual model bulldog was it because Charter Arms Bulldog .44 brings up lots of guns and none are the BR????
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racprops
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PostPosted: Sun May 16, 2010 5:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The core pistol was a Charter Arms 44 Bulldog.

Had to be a older used model from the 70's. Beleived to have been either: stripped blu, of a stainless steel or last parkerlised.

IF you look at the pistol frame, you will spot it.

More likely this model:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charter_Arms_Bulldog

Remove the barrel and grips and cut off the trigger guard and you have it.

Rich
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jameth
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PostPosted: Sun May 16, 2010 5:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Belt Sander comment:

For the grips please please please do not attempt without a stationary belt sander. Trying it by hand would be very bad.

If I may suggest find someone who has one you can use. Most school woodshops have one or to the local community college. Offer to help with something in exchange for the belt sanders use.

My opinion only but the idea of shaving down the thickness of the grips with a palm sander free hand makes me shake and my gun is already built. Crying or Very sad

Just free advice from someone who has trashed many a project learning how to do this.
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jameth
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PostPosted: Sun May 16, 2010 5:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

racprops wrote:
The core pistol was a Charter Arms 44 Bulldog.

Had to be a older used model from the 70's. Beleived to have been either: stripped blu, of a stainless steel or last parkerlised.

IF you look at the pistol frame, you will spot it.

More likely this model:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charter_Arms_Bulldog

Remove the barrel and grips and cut off the trigger guard and you have it.

Rich


In theory couldn't you have a gunsmith mount the top and side parts to the bulldog much like a scope would be. Have them build a custom barrel or cover for the existing barrel. The grips and grip frame already fit the gun then bam!!! You have a real working blaster??????

Now that I have handeled your blaster it seems relatively simple

What am I missing????????
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racprops
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PostPosted: Sun May 16, 2010 5:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I totaly agree.

Habor Freight sells a small on for under $100.00.

http://www.harborfreightusa.com/usa/itemdisplay/displayItem.do?itemid=97181&CategoryName=&SubCategoryName=

IF you going to do any other models you will love it.

Rich
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racprops
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PostPosted: Sun May 16, 2010 5:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Your missing nothing, yes it will fit.

BUT now you're playing with a real gun subject to real gun laws.

Rich


jameth wrote:
racprops wrote:
The core pistol was a Charter Arms 44 Bulldog.

Had to be a older used model from the 70's. Beleived to have been either: stripped blu, of a stainless steel or last parkerlised.

IF you look at the pistol frame, you will spot it.

More likely this model:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charter_Arms_Bulldog

Remove the barrel and grips and cut off the trigger guard and you have it.

Rich


In theory couldn't you have a gunsmith mount the top and side parts to the bulldog much like a scope would be. Have them build a custom barrel or cover for the existing barrel. The grips and grip frame already fit the gun then bam!!! You have a real working blaster??????

Now that I have handeled your blaster it seems relatively simple

What am I missing????????

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jameth
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PostPosted: Sun May 16, 2010 5:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Oh sure but if we are talking a legally bought good condition Bulldog of course and a good reputable licensed gunsmith I see using your kit that it really would not be that big of a deal to get done.

A working Blade Runner blaster

Interesting Laughing
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racprops
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PostPosted: Sun May 16, 2010 6:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

There are a few problems, you really need a custom 4.5 inch barrel made and then drilled for the receiver and ammo housing screws. This must be done by a gun smith.

Drilling the swing arm is a nightmare as charter puts a harden insert in it right next to where we need to drill out holes for the side cover.

On mine to mount the trigger guard I drilled the screw that holds the swing arm, not the frame as they did.

You have to be careful drilling the side cover holes, I had to do it twice on the front one, missed it….

Then you need to bob the hammer to clear the rear cap on the Steyr.

IF you stay with a dummy you need to deactivate it legally. Pull the firing pin and weld it up and then you can use the pewter barrel and Never ever fire anything in it, which with no firing pin will be safe.

Rich

PS. By the way this is almost an oxymoron: "good condition Bulldog"

These are the original Saturday Night Special, most gun are considered broken in with 500 round fired, the Charter is considered worn out with 500 rounds fired….

Lastly it was the Son of Sam gun.
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jameth
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PostPosted: Sun May 16, 2010 9:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Been talking to some members and just to clarify the issue to put it to bed I am not interested in starting anything or re-opening any wounds. I really just needed some questions answered about other kits as far as how they were built. Those have been answered and that's that.

Sorry if I ruffled any feathers.

As I just told someone I am a Special Education teacher and deal with drama all day.

Love props, hate drama. Nuff said
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jameth
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PostPosted: Sun May 16, 2010 10:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Okay painting question.

I have painted my black parts a nice Satin Black. It looks great but as many of you know what hides some flaws sometimes brings out others. Anywho it looks great but it is scratching real easy.

I skipped the usual primer on purpose as I figured the scrathes would look better if metal was showing through. Which it does but it has several scratches already and all I have done is picked it up gently and put it down gently.

My Questions

Can you paint over it after you have pewter blacked it????
I'm thinking the inevitable scratches would look good with the pewter black underneath.
Also I want to try the pewter black and if I don't love it I can then go with my beloved Gun Metal Gray spray for the other parts

Also to remove the paint I always use Easy off oven cleaner.

I am not used to metal but I assume as it does not hurt resin or plastic the pewtwer would be fine????????

That's only if I decide to re-do the Black Satin

Thanks
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racprops
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PostPosted: Sun May 16, 2010 10:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well the working idea is for the chips and scratches to show silver metal under, more like a real gun or metal prop would do as wear.

I used to ADD silver paint marks to models to give them the wear and tear look.

And yes what will not bite plastic will not bite pewter.

Rich
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andy
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PostPosted: Mon May 17, 2010 1:42 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

They make some nice matt black primers. If you are determined to paint it, it will allow for the need for less paint over all on the gun, and therefore crisper details.

Personally I have never seen a paint job look as good as real metal, even pewter. Especially gun metal metallic paint. Even airbrushed, they look kind of phony to me, almost Star Trek looking. The Vader helmet looks awesome, but it doesn't look like real metal to me.

The best paint job I have ever seen though, is Mark Raats painting of his PKD-1, where he used graphite powder rubbed into the paint. I have used the technique before on smaller scale props. It can be very convincing, and I think Mark has a tutorial on his site.

Another option I had heard someone doing before is to use the pewter black with a permanent blue marker. The way I had heard it done to is to hook up the marker to an airbrush blowing past it to get an even coating. Also combining other bluings together to get a rich deep multicolored finish. Another member added black shoe polish the even out the color, that also came across as very convincing, and similar to the worldcon finish.

Rich, Is there any way you can video tape some of your building process and upload them to youtube? I think seeing the process in action would help people a lot in knowing exactly what is needed to build these guns. It is very difficult to visualize your building process from your pictures. I do realize this might be a lot to ask especially since you have difficulty posting pictures here. It might make the difference though, between people being happy with your kit, and instead being rather unhappy.

Many people do generally underestimate the time and effort of putting together kits for sure, but I think a few people may have underestimated by a lot more than they realized. I will have to go back to the beginning of your threads to see if you had warned people enough on the overall rawness of your "kit" version. I know I had expected it knowing what you usually start with in your build version raw parts, and that is what I figured you were going to offer here. Not a true kit in the normal commercially made model kit sense, but raw parts that with time, skill and the right tools could make a fine realistic model. If enough people did not get this from your early posts, you may end up with a lot of requests for returns, and possible lawsuits. People have paid too much money for these to just write them off. I hope you can step up with further professionalism to help people get the best out of their experience with these kits and builds. Of course reselling these is also an option, but it doesn't help your reputation.

Maybe you could offer a tiered price for building help as you had initially to help those who didn't have the tools to the the fitting of parts and tapping of the screws, depending on what people need help with. Some people may be willing to pay a little more than they had before now knowing what needs to be done.

Andy
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propsjonnyb
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PostPosted: Mon May 17, 2010 3:31 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

One point to mention ,during all this , is that pewter is by definition a 'soft' metal by that I mean, it will bruise and mark more easily than most , so care must be taken, if you do go down the route of taking off the 'Pewter Black' which in truth is a metal finishing agent , you would have to get back to a smooth polished scratch free , no dints , no bangs - mirror finish to start again . Again for those interested although I do have the necessary machine tools to make the builds easier , I prefer in most cases to hand finish , as I have greater control over the finished product , yes it does takes longer - but even I have been a bit too enthusiastic with the belt sander , you can't put it back once you take it off - you know! Joking apart , I offer my help and support to anyone on this forum , particularly those resident in the UK, all the assistance they need - including doing some of the difficult bits .
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joberg
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PostPosted: Mon May 17, 2010 6:51 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

This is my 2 cents about the situation as a whole, I'm certainly not here to feed the flames of discord...but it seems to me that some people have interpreted the term "kit" for something plastic/out of the box kinda product. Far from it group: this is the kit of an independant source (Rich) and should be treated as such (flaws and all).
Yes, your level of skills should be high as well as the variety of tools you'll use to attain the pics of the finished gun posted by Rich. That said, if you want to pay for the highest quality start phoning Japan and get a second mortage on your house ...I'm sorry, I really don't understand some of the people here saying that for $800 they should've had a perfect kit. Let's be logical here and use common sense! Rolling Eyes
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marsattack
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PostPosted: Mon May 17, 2010 7:36 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

........and lets continue with the KIT thread!


I have reshaped the grip frame and polished it, fitted the grips and re shaped them also, however i do not like the polishing on them, may need a different buffing system for the grips.
I am however going to RECAST the new grips so i can keep them in case they break or if anyone else wants them OR if i wanna do the ivory grips. I also think doing a new 2 part silicon mold will save me from polishing completely see through the grips.
I will also do a mold of the new shaped gripframe as it is perfectly matched to the butt plate and grips. Later for those unable to do this step can get a new already worked pewter cast.
Honestly to do this step and get the result here shown , you WILL need time , patience , specialised tools and somewhat some knowledge , at least some safety knowledge!!!lol
This is probably the hardest step in the build by far.

Guys try and keep to topic on the build or constructive criticism, if the kit has problems, it is not due to the amount of money paid , it is due to the FACT that the kit has a lot of problems. I give a rats a***e (aussie slang) what you should get for your $$$.
The reason why I seem to be the only one recognising these issues and bringing them up and would like assistance is because I am the only one that has started the kit.
No doubt these same problems OR more will be brought up when guys start their blasters..
DO not try and tell the 30 or so guys that spent their 500 plus bucks now that their blaster MAY not turn out as the pics.....
Lets try and do a thread where we come accross all hurdles , problems , issues or whatever you wanna call them so it helps everyone out!

enough talk , here are some pics::::



[img]

[/img]

[img]

[/img]


Last edited by marsattack on Sat Jun 05, 2010 3:00 am; edited 2 times in total
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propsjonnyb
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PostPosted: Mon May 17, 2010 7:45 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I completely agree with Jobergs comments and others here , generally in the main ,but I would say even given a RAW kit cast items - anyone with average modelling skills could attempt this build , I'm not saying it would be perfect , but you so don't really need specialist tools - yes- they make the difficult jobs easier of course they do - but anyone , and I do mean anyone with modest skills could build a reasonably acceptable finished blaster by hand with no specialist equipment following the instructions and pictorial gulde Rich has provided and certainly the deluxe kits anyone could dissassemble and paint and finish because that's all you have to do - all the difficult work has been done already , if you decided to made additions to the kit to make it more functional or whatever , that is your personal perogative - I personally prefer my replicas in general to be functioning ones - so I have designed and built a 'conversion' donor gun ,that replaces the inner gun frame, drum , barrel and inner handle - everything else , are the parts supplied from Rich - I do that to get a working revolving drum so that each time the gun is fired the barrel rotates , as I'm replacing the drum I need additional clearance on both lhs & rhs shrouds so they allow the drium to rotate freely I add a dummy front trigger , fixed exactly like the hero and I ensure the thumbcatch release is spring fitted so it works properly just like on the real gun , my point is I've added this extra functionallity to get closer to a theatrical model -my blasters fire just like the film prop , producing the bang , smoke and flame you see on film - but they do it safely and legally , if you hold a gun license as I do and could get the necessary permissions , I could buy a Styer and a CA police Special and I could make a truely identical copy to the hero , but with one exception - it would be a real gun firing real bullets - it would cost about $3000 all in but would be hell to make as others who have done so can easily confirm , but it is possible . would you want to do it ?? well a purist with lots of money might ! but as has been pointed out many times the Styer was 'window dressing' only the Charter Arms Bulldog worked - yes you could move the bolt arm on the Styer, but that was an item added by the gunsmith/propmaker it didn't perform any function , just like the front trigger , there simply because Ridley Scott like the Styer double trigger feature - we all like the idea of the merged revolver and high powered rifle - which is why we have all the Sci-fi speculation as to what type of ammo it could have fired , given you could workout the technicallities of one main chamber firing two different types of bullets through one barrel - the Styer had a unique revolving magazine, one very futuristic idea in the 80's -the CA a normal revolver action , marrying the two together give you the 'M2019' blaster a normal high powered hand gun .44 and a high powered .222 replicant killer firing rocket shells ( perhaps ??)

Last edited by propsjonnyb on Mon May 17, 2010 8:20 am; edited 1 time in total
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propsjonnyb
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PostPosted: Mon May 17, 2010 8:08 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mars , I cpmpletely agree and the photos you've added show what's achieveable with hard graft hand- sanding and knowledge of the polishing compound/products to use to give back the transparancy on the grips , personally I don't think you need to recast the frame or the grips, granted Rich has had a few problems with the castings , but as long as they are oversized and not undersized , there's no real need, as you can get exactly that effect with Rich's casts following the tutorial , the undersized ones obviously you can't, but Rich has stated he will replace defective parts anyway - I can completely understand your reasons why though , as the buttplate for me on the 'new'model is slightly smaller that the last one and I prefer the larger one to work from, so I also have sculpted and cast my own version for my own use, but I still think you or anyone on this forum who has (and I'll qualify it - scratch built any model ) can produce a presentable finished model that would match Rich's finished product , I even go so far to say that some will almost certainly surpass it - I hope to be one .
I shall certainly continue to answer both public forum posts and private PM's regarding the build and finish of any model, I will continue to share my knowledge and experience with anyone who is courteous to ask .

And you're not the only one building the kit , I'm building kits - plural - meaning more that one - several in fact and each presents slightly different 'anomalies' - I like that word - 'anomalies' not problems, not issues , but challenges to my modelling skills to fix !.
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marsattack
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PostPosted: Mon May 17, 2010 8:20 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

thank you Johnny, for your assistance through out the build, i did consider you part of the "makers group" and not the kit buyers though, hope you don't mind.lol
Mars
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