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Staar
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 08, 2012 12:23 am    Post subject: Re: AGREED Reply with quote

Tony, I didn't make that comment lightly its generally the way I have found it to be.

While some craftspeople relish the attention, I have found that there are a significant number who prefer their privacy and they generally can't understand what the fuss is all about. People like Stan Winston love the attention and indeed, Stan created an industry around his fame. On the other hand, men like Ralph McQuarrie or Phil Tippett only very reluctantly give in to the attention and its because - more often than not - there are gatekeepers who act as buffers...

As some of you know I personally know many of the current and old guard visual effects and prop/model builders through the work I have done in the industry for many years.

I FULLY agree that we need to keep their stories and knowledge as well archived as possible, but its not necessarily a cut and dry issue..

Regards

MARK
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joberg
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 08, 2012 7:08 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

As others have mentioned quite eloquently the psychology behind the need for recognition or the need to remain somewhat anonymous, I still believe that the pros in the industry don't quite understand why fans of a particular movie want to know every little details pertaining to it.
To quote one of my friend: "This was a job, we worked as a team to help the director put his vision on the screen and when they called for the Martini shot, I was already networking and thinking about my next gig."

Not that my friend doesn't like his job, on the contrary, but he's always amazed at how much info is gathered by fans over the years and the questions they ask are so precise that sometimes, he has to admit that he doesn't remember if so and so was shooting that day, or if they re-dressed a particular piece of set, etc...That's why he's somewhat reluctant to meet people like me that sees him as some kind of V.I.P. just because he rubbed elbow with actors, directors and worked with various movie crews over the decades.
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TM
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 08, 2012 8:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Joberg,

A number of the architects I have interviewed had a similar attitude. That house, or that building, was just a job a long time ago - and they have moved on. There is often an attitude of "why would anyone be interested in that"?

But usually when I start asking questions about details - Why that roof? Why that color? - then they start to remember the design process and that gets them interested. Not always, of course.

If I still lived in L.A. this is a project I'd have liked to do. Finding people is not all that hard, although with architects it's rather easy - they all seem to keep their license until they die - and that's a public record. Hmmm, too bad that propmakers aren't licensed!

Another angle is that while the propmaker may not be interested, the widow, widower or children are often interested in getting the propmaker the recognition they think he/she deserved. And they may have access to private archives.

Anyway, I'd just like to encourage people to try this. It's not that hard to talk to people, especially when you have a great deal of knowledge about the subject - like most people here on Propsummit.

Tony
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Noeland
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 08, 2012 10:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thank you for posting what you have found out from your gunsmith! It's interesting information that only thickens the plot and deepens the questions.

Like many things Blade Runner there is no definitive answer. Only mysteries.

New name for one of my variant blasters: The Wohlfahrt


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joberg
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 09, 2012 9:38 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I agree Tony, Lord knows that I would've liked to interview FLLW or Neutra or even going back in time and talking to Joseph Hoffman or McIntosh...it's always better to get the stories from the"horse's mouth" than the other perspective (or memories) of familly and friends; not that that perspective is not interesting is just that hearing it from the builder is always great info into the process and the ideas behind the process Wink
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Replicant 13
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 09, 2012 12:01 pm    Post subject: THE TRUTH IS OUT THERE. Reply with quote

We now know that Christopher Columbus was not the first to discover America. He never even made it to the USA. In school I was taught he was "the guy". And even yet, he generally gets the credit and in some schools children are still being taught those kind of inaccuracies.

This is our area of interest. Whenever and wherever possible, we should record the real story, while we can.

- R13
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Phoenixent
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 17, 2012 5:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Staar wrote:
The movie industry is generally no different from most other hands-on, skills based, craftsperson's occupation. Some people thrive on attention and others wouldn't wish it on their worst enemy and its not necessarily because some are more successful than others - its just the way different people are wired.

Regards

MARK


You are correct Mark most of the gunsmiths/armorers in the film industry just want to do their job and do it well then move on to the next project. We don't seek fame and fortune in or out of the film industry...
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Gero
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 22, 2012 3:37 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Noeland wrote:
It's interesting information that only thickens the plot and deepens the questions.

Like many things Blade Runner there is no definitive answer. Only mysteries.

New name for one of my variant blasters: The Wohlfahrt



I think so too, but a very long time people believed that Rembrandt was the painter from "Man with the Golden Helmet" and painted by himself. It has taken centuries to discover the truth. I hope we dont need so long Time to find the truth about the gunsmith of the blaster.
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Replicant 13
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 22, 2012 8:39 am    Post subject: THE TRUTH Reply with quote

After 30 years, the only concern should be establishing the facts before those who truly know leave us. A historian once told me that however insignificant it may seem, the truth has no room for arrogance OR humility.

I certainly don't think the intention here is to deify anyone, or glorify their contributions. It's just proper recognition and respect.

- R13
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Bassnoir
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 22, 2012 6:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

...the so called truth of "history" is that it's written by the survivors with an agenda...I'm just sayin...
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racprops
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 22, 2012 7:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

History= His Story....

Rich
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Replicant 13
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 22, 2012 8:14 pm    Post subject: WINNERS & LOSERS Reply with quote

It may well be said that history is written by the victors, but years, decades and centuries later - after considerable effort, the truth is often discovered, but with a great deal more difficulty and a whole lot of holes.

- R13
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Bassnoir
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 23, 2012 12:33 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

....survivors are not always victors....and the agenda of either is pretty much up for grabs....truth is at best relative...at worst a lie...

I personally am not real big on absolutes....one mans opinion...
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TM
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 23, 2012 8:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

To me, it's not about "truth" or "fame" but rather it's about information about the design process. Why the double triggers? Why base the gun on those two particular weapons? I find that most creative people like talking about the creative process.

Wouldn't it be great to have a panel discussion with the still living designers and prop creators?

Tony
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Staar
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 23, 2012 10:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

TM wrote:
Why the double triggers?




The triggers were inspired by the Steyr but for the rest I agree with you completely..

Regards

MARK
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racprops
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 23, 2012 10:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I also think they did not want to use the stock trigger guard as it would be spotted and thus known. Which on a Bulldog the trigger guard and grip frame is easy to remove and being aluminum is easy to cut.

But then you have a large gap, so a second trigger fills that space, and make the weapon looks powerful like a double barrel shot gun and mysteries...

Just like adding the Steyr receiver make it look big...and powerful..

It would really be great IF someone put together a filming crew and interview all of these people. (once found)

Rich
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Replicant 13
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 23, 2012 11:03 pm    Post subject: LAST COMMENT Reply with quote

I'm not sure, but it seems my point may have been misunderstood. The quest should apply to all aspects of Blade Runner - not just "who did what", although that is part of the puzzle.

No disrespect intended, my intent was simply that the effort should be made now, rather than later. Confused

- R13
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andy
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 24, 2012 3:36 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I like searching for the truth here, the same way archaeologists do, Forensic scientists do, Investigative journalists do, pretty much all scientists do, and any one with limited information that stills wonders at least for their own knowledge, what the complete picture really is. It is like a puzzle. Just ask any of those addicted to Soduko, or crosswords. Many people don't care what the "Truth" is, but some of us do.

Andy
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philippes
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 07, 2012 1:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I posted the following on the RPF a few days ago. I think Rich may have forgotten we spoke with Jay Abramson many years ago (October 14, 2001 3:41 PM):

Rich and I later spoke with Jay Abramson who worked at B & B Sales (a large gun shop in North Hollywood, CA). Here’s how he described the compiling of the Steyr and the Charter Arms Bulldog:

“I was directed to help Robbie Knott of Knott Limited Special Effects when he came looking for some kind of weapon to use for Blade Runner. With what limited info as he could give, we quickly decided to give up on the single shot airpistols which had a "spacey" look to them. We were one of the few and possibly ONLY shops to have available Steyr Mannlicher actions available to the public.

It's been a long time since then, but if memory serves, I believe the action was an SL, with double set triggers, the rear trigger being a "set" trigger, to pre-load the release trigger to fire with only ounces of pressure. I don't believe there were any worn or poor markings, as Steyr QC simply wouldn't allow such shoddy work to be released, even as an action only. In fact Steyr was so particular about details that the filler screws for the scope mount on top of the receiver (action) were aligned so the slots on all 4 were "north-south", from the rear of the action to barrel mount.

We worked on trying to brainstorm how to make a firing weapon out of this piece, and came up with this:

A Charter Arms cal. 5-shot 44 Special 3" Bbl Bulldog

A pair of Bianchi Lightning rubber grips (a one-piece design made under contract by Pachmayr)

The afore-mentioned SM medium length action, model SL

The concept as I recall was going to be to cast a mold of the action, and then somehow mate it to the Bulldog, giving the ability to fire 5 rounds before having to reload. Simple concept. Obviously from all reports and photos, something else occurred. The lightning grips disappeared, and the original action was somehow mated to the 'dog.’"

Phil
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philippes
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 07, 2012 1:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Here's the original email in its entirety to put the whole thing in the proper context:

----------------------------
Dear Mr. Coyle,

While trying to search the net for someone making a real Star Trek Communicator cellphone, I stumbled on you site, courtesy of the Google search engine (Thank You, Google). I was very impressed by your Communicator and Tri-Corder articles.

When Blade Runner was in pre-production, I was employed by B & B Sales, a large gun shop in North Hollywood, CA. Accustomed to dealing with celebs, production companies and prop houses (We supplied the A-Team with their weapons when the stopped using the services of Ellis Mercantile Co., a large prop house in L.A.), I was directed to help Robbie Knott of Knott Limited Special Effects when he came looking for some kind of weapon to use for Blade Runner. With what limited info as he could give, we quickly decided to give up on the single shot airpistols which had a "spacey" look to them. We were one of the few and possibly ONLY shops to have available Steyr Mannlicher actions available to the public.

It's been a long time since then, but if memory serves, I believe the action was an SL, with double set triggers, the rear trigger being a "set" trigger, to pre-load the release trigger to fire with only ounces of pressure. I don't believe there was any worn or poor markings, as Steyr QC simply wouldn't allow such shoddy work to be released, even as an action only. In fact Steyr was so particular about details that the filler screws for the scope mount on top of the receiver (action) were aligned so the slots on all 4 were "north-south", from the rear of the action to barrel mount.

We worked on trying to brainstorm how to make a firing weapon out of this piece, and came up with this:

A Charter Arms cal. 5-shot 44 Special 3" Bbl Bulldog

A pair of Bianchi Lightning rubber grips ( a one-piece design made under contract by Pachmayr )

The afore-mentioned SM medium length action, model SL

The concept as I recall was going to be to cast a mold of the action, and then somehow mate it to the Bulldog, giving the ability to fire 5 rounds before having to reload. Simple concept. Obviously from all reports and photos, something else occured. The lightning grips disappeared, and the original action was somehow mated to the 'dog.

I was able to visit Knott Limited once, but it was early on and nothing yet had been done with the pieces. I don't know if Robbie Knott and company completed work on the film or if the project went elsewhere.

Hope this helps to fill in some history on a rare and unique piece of memorabilia.

Sincerely,
Jay Abramson
----------------------------

Phil


Last edited by philippes on Sun Oct 07, 2012 1:42 pm; edited 1 time in total
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