|
|
|
|
|
Author |
Message |
TimeEnough Community Member
Joined: 24 Feb 2011 Posts: 18
|
Posted: Sat Mar 05, 2011 8:08 pm Post subject: |
|
|
That was very well written Vader.
I'm pretty sure Tyrell is the father of lies, but also the only character that fully knows what's going on. The fact that he was destroyed by his own creation can mean Roy had surpassed his intelligence, or, that it was too much power for one person to have. I agree that his speech was to sweet talk Roy and Roy seen through it.
Quote: | Or is it that Rachel's answers keep being ambiguous enough to warrant new questions? |
This is what I figured: Like marking "indifferent" to too many questions on a personality test. Or in Leon's case, becoming extremely offended by something so simple.
If the fake owl is expensive and the real snake is expensive, then what is cheap? |
|
Back to top |
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Author |
Message |
The Loyalizer Community Member
Joined: 08 Oct 2007 Posts: 742 Location: Down in 4th Sector, Chinatown
|
Posted: Sun Mar 06, 2011 12:27 am Post subject: |
|
|
Leon had to have been memory implanted, otherwise what's with the precious photos?
As for the VK test catching him sooner than Rachel, you have to remember it also measures involuntary physical reactions too, not just empathic reactions. So it's possible that Leon's involuntary reactions tipped Holden off. _________________
"We began to recognize in them a strange obsession..."
http://fcomin.cgsociety.org/gallery/ |
|
Back to top |
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Author |
Message |
The Loyalizer Community Member
Joined: 08 Oct 2007 Posts: 742 Location: Down in 4th Sector, Chinatown
|
Posted: Sun Mar 06, 2011 12:28 am Post subject: |
|
|
TimeEnough wrote: | If the fake owl is expensive and the real snake is expensive, then what is cheap? |
White Dragon. _________________
"We began to recognize in them a strange obsession..."
http://fcomin.cgsociety.org/gallery/ |
|
Back to top |
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Author |
Message |
Art Deckard Community Member
Joined: 21 Mar 2007 Posts: 280 Location: UK
|
Posted: Sun Mar 06, 2011 12:35 am Post subject: Re: Question regarding story |
|
|
Vader wrote: | TimeEnough wrote: | why doesn't he know about the 4 year life span on replicants? |
For me, the answer to this was always in Bryant's tone, when he responds to Deckard's "which is what?".
I read it to imply that Deckard does know about the four-year life span, but he was not aware that its purpose is to act as a fail-safe device against replicants developing their own emotional responses. |
This is a an excellent point, Vader, and one which I had overlooked.
Watching that scene again, just now, I have to agree.
We can think of the real reasons behind the four-year lifespan as being one of Tyrell's most closely guarded secrets and they have only just released this info to the BR Unit because they realise they have a potential disaster on their hands.
It's also important to note that Bryant tells us the Tyrell people anticpated the emotional problem.
This too backs up the idea that the limited lifespan has been in place for a while.
Nearly 30 years on and I'm still seeing new stuff!
This is a most edifying conversation fellas. |
|
Back to top |
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Author |
Message |
Art Deckard Community Member
Joined: 21 Mar 2007 Posts: 280 Location: UK
|
Posted: Sun Mar 06, 2011 12:50 am Post subject: |
|
|
The Loyalizer wrote: | Leon had to have been memory implanted, otherwise what's with the precious photos? |
I've responded to this further back. Some of his photos look to be over 100 years old. My understanding was always that he just collected photos because he hankered after a past. |
|
Back to top |
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Author |
Message |
Vader Community Member
Joined: 19 Feb 2011 Posts: 267 Location: Sweden
|
Posted: Sun Mar 06, 2011 11:36 am Post subject: |
|
|
The Loyalizer wrote: | As for the VK test catching him sooner than Rachel, you have to remember it also measures involuntary physical reactions too, not just empathic reactions. So it's possible that Leon's involuntary reactions tipped Holden off. |
But had Rachel not been any different from Leon, she would have had those same physical reactions, and been caught just as quickly as any other replicant. The fact that it takes much longer for Deckard to maybe identify her shows that there is something different about her — and Tyrell obligingly tells us exactly what that difference is: they've given her a past, an identity. Memories.
Art Deckard wrote: | My understanding was always that he just collected photos because he hankered after a past. |
This is how I always have understod it, too. Leon's photo collection is a symptom, one of those erratic behaviour patterns that the N6's start indulging in when they start getting close enough to the expiration date that the emotional development is beginning to assert itself. I've never read it to be a "photo package" that Tyrell Corp. put in his pocket to match a fake identity they downloaded into him at the factory.
And let's face it: The N6's have an emotional problem, this is one of the established facts in the story. Actually, this emotional problem is the very reason why they jumped a shuttle and came to Earth looking for Tyrell in the first place. And why they only have a limited life span.
The memory implant technology has been developed to remove this problem.
It is clear that Rachel thinks she is human, and would happily have gone on thinking so until the day she died, had Deckard not convinced her otherwise.
She was never going to develop the mental instability problems that standard N6's do — why would she? She had the cushion for her feelings that her memories provided her, and which all standard Nexus replicants lack.
In essence, she had what the others wanted, which Leon tried to provide for himself by collecting photographs (probably pretty much at random), and Roy wanted to fix by getting more lifetime to accumulate those memories. _________________ 26354 |
|
Back to top |
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Author |
Message |
TimeEnough Community Member
Joined: 24 Feb 2011 Posts: 18
|
Posted: Sun Mar 06, 2011 1:46 pm Post subject: |
|
|
Quote: | She was never going to develop the mental instability problems that standard N6's do — why would she? |
This is the only thing I don't agree with, because Tyrell says, "She's starting to suspect, I think". |
|
Back to top |
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Author |
Message |
Vader Community Member
Joined: 19 Feb 2011 Posts: 267 Location: Sweden
|
Posted: Sun Mar 06, 2011 2:27 pm Post subject: |
|
|
TimeEnough wrote: | Tyrell says, "She's starting to suspect, I think". |
So he does, indeed — forgot about that line ... been a while since I watched it, so I'm just replaying the dialogue from memory... But the extent of what that line means is only that she might not all that "happily have gone on thinking she was human until the day she died".
The question is, does that mean that she is still subject to the emotional instability issue?
The whole point of giving her a past is to cushion her emotional responses once she starts developing them, and this is a cushion the standard N6's do not have. This much is established early in the story.
In fact, towards the end of the story, Rachel is fully aware and seems to accept that she is a replicant, but she has begun displaying no erratic behaviour, nor is the prospect of her doing so made into a factor in the storytelling. In spite of, it must be added, Deckard overloading her emotions with his romantic overtures.
She still has the gift that makes her unique. The cause of the instability issue is not an awareness of being a replicant, but rather a developing emotional awareness of existence itself, something that already having a defined identity for this awareness to slip into can indeed help a sentient being deal with.
So I am still inclined to believe that the answer to that question is no, she is not.
If the cure Tyrell developed — gifting replicants with a past — works (and we are given no indication that it does not), Rachel will still never develop the instability issues that plague standard N6's.
Another question is, what makes Tyrell think Rachel begins to suspect?
From her own behaviour when she confronts Deckard, it is not obvious that this is a thought that has ever entered into her mind. On the other hand, it might have, and she is in denial.
But on the other hand, Tyrell might simply be wrong — the "I think" opens for that distinct possibility. _________________ 26354 |
|
Back to top |
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Author |
Message |
joberg Community Member
Joined: 06 Oct 2008 Posts: 9447
|
Posted: Sun Mar 06, 2011 6:56 pm Post subject: |
|
|
I understand your previous point Vader...I didn't explain myself thoroughly concerning the G.I. questions: for example baseball questions and other questions that only somebody having lived his whole life in the U.S. could've answered
And I think that the V.K. test (and I'll put V.K. test + questions) is a way to gauge and mesure( I understand your point of vue as why, after 50 or 60 questions, Deckard continued interviewing Rachael) an individual reactions to make sure we are in the presence of a Replicant or a human.
As you said before there are people in the U.S. that have no knowledge of baseball, likewise a lot of people don't know where Malmo is;
but those are not questions to be asked to a Replicant nor to a human...
Your thoughts about Rachael are most interesting: since she seems to be "stable" Deckard take the decision of leaving with her, knowing full well that she's an android...he cares enough about her to put his own life in jeopardy. He's fulfilling what every human needs: companionship, friendship, love... |
|
Back to top |
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Author |
Message |
steevy Community Member
Joined: 25 Jul 2007 Posts: 389
|
Posted: Sun Mar 06, 2011 10:02 pm Post subject: |
|
|
I'm not sure Leon was "caught".Holden may have had been suspicious but I think he was only sure when Leon shot at him.I think Leon ,being not too bright,succumbed to the pressure more than anything. |
|
Back to top |
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Author |
Message |
The Loyalizer Community Member
Joined: 08 Oct 2007 Posts: 742 Location: Down in 4th Sector, Chinatown
|
Posted: Mon Mar 07, 2011 12:13 am Post subject: |
|
|
Yeah I can see the point of view that Leon might just be collecting photos to give himself a past. I think for me that's due to having seen the theatrical cut as a kid, where Deckard's voice over says Rachel's photos were as phony as Leon's.
As far as the memory implants being a viable method of control, and Tyrell's suggestion that she's beginning to suspect, it could mean that she was starting to find holes in the illussionary past she was gifted with.
Maybe she'd done some digging into her past and was starting to find that things didn't add up. What happens when say, Rachel decides to look up an old childhood friend, and finds that the person doesn't exist, or has no memory of what she remembers?
I guess what I'm trying to say is, they aren't really memories, more of a smokescreen designed to sustain an illusion for a few years. And that illusion doesn't hold up if you start poking into the fine details. _________________
"We began to recognize in them a strange obsession..."
http://fcomin.cgsociety.org/gallery/ |
|
Back to top |
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Author |
Message |
The Loyalizer Community Member
Joined: 08 Oct 2007 Posts: 742 Location: Down in 4th Sector, Chinatown
|
Posted: Mon Mar 07, 2011 12:18 am Post subject: |
|
|
steevy wrote: | I'm not sure Leon was "caught".Holden may have had been suspicious but I think he was only sure when Leon shot at him.I think Leon ,being not too bright,succumbed to the pressure more than anything. |
Watch Holden's reaction when Leon says he's never seen a tortoise but knows what he means. Holden knows right there he's got a replicant. But very often in law enforcement, its not what you know, its what you can prove. Which is why he goes on with the test, hoping that he'll get the positive reading he needs. At which point Leon does crack under pressure and shoots him. _________________
"We began to recognize in them a strange obsession..."
http://fcomin.cgsociety.org/gallery/ |
|
Back to top |
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Author |
Message |
Vader Community Member
Joined: 19 Feb 2011 Posts: 267 Location: Sweden
|
Posted: Mon Mar 07, 2011 8:09 am Post subject: |
|
|
I'm not sure all that many people in the US even know such a place as Malmö even exists, much less place it on a map...
But it doesn't seem to me that Deckard thinks he's taking a calculated risk. Rather, he seems to think she is in more need of protection from her environment than the other way around.
The Loyalizer wrote: | I think for me that's due to having seen the theatrical cut as a kid, where Deckard's voice over says Rachel's photos were as phony as Leon's. |
I guess my take on that always was that the photos are as phony in terms of their relevance to Rachel's actual background as Leon's are to his. The difference being that Leon knows they are, but Rachel does not.
The Loyalizer wrote: | I guess what I'm trying to say is, they aren't really memories, more of a smokescreen designed to sustain an illusion for a few years. And that illusion doesn't hold up if you start poking into the fine details. |
But they are real memories, just not hers, but Tyrell's niece's.
But I agree - she may be finding discrepancies between what she remembers and what she knows or discovers of herself. Also, she may find that people around her don't treat her quite the same way they do everybody else.
Or at least, Tyrell thinks this may be the case.
The Loyalizer wrote: | Watch Holden's reaction when Leon says he's never seen a tortoise but knows what he means. Holden knows right there he's got a replicant. |
I agree completely. It is obvious from the look Holden gives Leon, and from the triumphant tone in his voice when he starts pressuring Leon about the turtle.
I guess the final straw is when Holden asks Leon to tell him about his mother, a person both know - and at this point, both know both know - doesn't exist. That's what makes Leon shoot Holden, more than the pressure.
Let us not forget that Leon, while not very bright when compared to Roy or Zhora, being a Nexus 6, is still brilliant by human standards. _________________ 26354 |
|
Back to top |
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Author |
Message |
andy Community Guide
Joined: 01 Nov 2006 Posts: 6237 Location: Rochester, NY
|
Posted: Mon Mar 07, 2011 2:54 pm Post subject: |
|
|
I have always wondered if Leon was playing stupid so he didn't have to answer the questions directly, thus confusing the results. I really get that impression that he knows what he is doing.
Andy |
|
Back to top |
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Author |
Message |
Vader Community Member
Joined: 19 Feb 2011 Posts: 267 Location: Sweden
|
Posted: Mon Mar 07, 2011 5:28 pm Post subject: |
|
|
andy wrote: | I really get that impression that he knows what he is doing. |
Well, he pretty much has to, hasn't he? I mean, him being a new employee at Tyrell Corp. in the first place is all part of a Replicant plot — a ploy to start a wa... sorry, a ploy to get in contact with Eldon Tyrell. It's a stratagem, and Leon doing his "dumb worker" act at Holden is just him sticking to the plan — even when he must be thinking "ohshitohshitohshit" as soon as he sees that the unscheduled "personality test" he is to have incorporates a V-K machine... _________________ 26354 |
|
Back to top |
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Author |
Message |
Art Deckard Community Member
Joined: 21 Mar 2007 Posts: 280 Location: UK
|
Posted: Mon Mar 07, 2011 10:21 pm Post subject: |
|
|
The Loyalizer wrote: | Watch Holden's reaction when Leon says he's never seen a tortoise but knows what he means. Holden knows right there he's got a replicant. |
vader wrote: | I agree completely. It is obvious from the look Holden gives Leon, and from the triumphant tone in his voice when he starts pressuring Leon about the turtle. |
There's even a quick shot of the VK suggesting that maybe Holden has spotted something on the monitor.
Poor old Holden, if only he'd waited for the videos and poop sheets that Deck had access to! Leon didn't even bother adopting an alias. |
|
Back to top |
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Author |
Message |
The Loyalizer Community Member
Joined: 08 Oct 2007 Posts: 742 Location: Down in 4th Sector, Chinatown
|
Posted: Tue Mar 08, 2011 5:55 am Post subject: |
|
|
andy wrote: | I have always wondered if Leon was playing stupid so he didn't have to answer the questions directly, thus confusing the results. I really get that impression that he knows what he is doing.
Andy |
I think Bryon James actually addressed this in Future Noir, where he stated that Leon was deliberately messing with Holden at this point.
Damn I really need to read that one again, its been a while. _________________
"We began to recognize in them a strange obsession..."
http://fcomin.cgsociety.org/gallery/ |
|
Back to top |
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Author |
Message |
The Loyalizer Community Member
Joined: 08 Oct 2007 Posts: 742 Location: Down in 4th Sector, Chinatown
|
Posted: Tue Mar 08, 2011 5:57 am Post subject: |
|
|
Art Deckard wrote: | The Loyalizer wrote: | Watch Holden's reaction when Leon says he's never seen a tortoise but knows what he means. Holden knows right there he's got a replicant. |
vader wrote: | I agree completely. It is obvious from the look Holden gives Leon, and from the triumphant tone in his voice when he starts pressuring Leon about the turtle. |
There's even a quick shot of the VK suggesting that maybe Holden has spotted something on the monitor. |
Doesn't the VK machine make a beeping noise right before Holden looks up at Leon when that question comes up? Or is that just background noise in the Tyrell building? _________________
"We began to recognize in them a strange obsession..."
http://fcomin.cgsociety.org/gallery/ |
|
Back to top |
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Author |
Message |
joberg Community Member
Joined: 06 Oct 2008 Posts: 9447
|
Posted: Tue Mar 08, 2011 8:05 am Post subject: |
|
|
Well, Leon blows his cover when he shots Holden (back to the drawing board...it seems to me that Batty doesn't have much patience with Leon: Batty is the brain, Leon is the brawn).
Maybe Leon was playing dum with Holden...maybe not, but it seems to me that Batty sent him to do the dirty work for him first...at the end Batty has to confront his maker himself using his intelligence. |
|
Back to top |
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Author |
Message |
Vader Community Member
Joined: 19 Feb 2011 Posts: 267 Location: Sweden
|
Posted: Tue Mar 08, 2011 8:29 am Post subject: |
|
|
Weell... Leon's cover has already been blown by the V-K ("Describe in single words only the good things that come into your mind about ... your mother"). That's why Leon shoots holden - to be able to make his escape.
- The frontal assault fails, and they take some losses.
- So, Roy sends Leon to test the waters at Tyrell. This fails spectacularly due to tightened security, and he barely makes it out again.
- So, Roy starts looking for alternate routes, and through Chew, he finds Sebastian.
- So, like a chess player, he sends forward another pawn, Pris, to see if they can infiltrate that way.
- This time, because Roy realises the significance of the chess board, he succeeds.
Question is: what is Zhora doing? Her taking a job as "Salome" must in some way be a part of the plan - some way to get at Tyrell.
Have they found out that Tyrell periodically visits Taffy's? Not terribly likely.
Some other key employee that does? More likely.
I doubt it's a case of them simply needing money to pay the rent - they have other ways to get funds, and needn't resort to something that ... elaborate. _________________ 26354 |
|
Back to top |
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
You cannot post new topics in this forum You cannot reply to topics in this forum You cannot edit your posts in this forum You cannot delete your posts in this forum You cannot vote in polls in this forum
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|