GRIP FRAME - BLACK OR METAL ??

[drmcoy]

Thought I'd start a new thread to address an issue about grip color that came up for discussion on the thread about a recent build I did for another forum member.

A picture was posted that showed that the area of grip frame underneath the amber grips could indeed be black with some areas worn away.

After studying the WC photos for the zillionth time, I am posting some of the WC pics that, to me, indicate that the frame may indeed be mostly METAL and NOT painted black.

I will be the first to admit that it is sometimes challenging to be 100% certain about colors of a prop based on photos because the photographic process can make you think you are seeing one thing when, in fact, it is something totally different in reality. The shiny nature of the amber grips and the similarity in tone between dark gun metal and black paint also make this all the more challenging.

So, here are several of the photos (or portions of the photos) of the WC prop that I think make a good case for most of the frame being metal and not black.

PHOTO #1





The yellow area in this photo makes it look like the area is metal and not black...but is it distortion from the amber grips??

PHOTO #2



This second photo seems to show more clearly the black little triangle that sticks out near top of amber grip in top left corner, and then along the right side of grip where fingers would wrap -- this area circled in yellow looks like metal to me as you can also make out little portions that may be black on top of the metal color.

PHOTO #3



On the other side of grip frame, it looks like circled area on right is metal -- but this could be glare from grip. However, the area circled on left (where fingers would wrap) seems to show a thin sliver of a silver line on the inside portion of grip frame...but again, could this be glare?

PHOTO #4




A closer look (where it appears grips have been slightly shifted in position) reveals a larger gap on grip frame edge that appears to be metal, not black.

PHOTO #5



Same side of grip -- note little triangle of black near upper right corner under amber grip and the res t of area circled appears to be metal colored in comparison to the little swatch of black. I don't think amber grip shape or glare is distorting image here because if it was, it should be distorting the image equally, yet we can clearly see the black patch at top and the rest of area appears to be metal.

PHOTO #6




But here it gets a little confusing because this shot of same area (different pic) shows what looks like more black -- or is it just dark metal?? I can't tell.

PHOTO #7



But this seventh picture seems to show clearly the little black patch in relation to what appears to be clearly metal color.

PHOTO #8



Flip side appears to support that the little triangle area of black near grip corner is indeed black, but surrounding area is not black, but darkened metal....if there WAS more black, it seems like it would have shown up in this shot and if not, then why not? Same angle...same grip...same lighting.

PHOTO #9




And another shot of same area from different angle -- what looked so black on other shots is, to my eye, clearly NOT black, except for that little triangular patch.

There are more pics to be studied, but the ones I have shown here seem to provide photographic evidence that most of the grip frame that lies beneath the amber grips is dark metal and not black paint.

But again, this is my take on the photos. If you think differently, please post a pic and the reasoning behind your difference of opinion, because in the end, this is why I am even posting this stuff -- to find out what the true color is.

Thanks in advance to anyone who contributes to this thread.
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teckel@bellsouth.net

[andy]

I have looked at all the pictures and can see what you are talking about, but I still believe it is black. I think the inside of the grips may have some some surface scratches from sanding flat (thus the striations), and the reflectivity of those makes them look shiny and therefore more silver. It is obviously darker than the metal part of the bulldog frame right next to it which is actually darkened steel and not totally silver itself.

Most important is the spot where the broken off piece is glued back on is completely black. The glue would take away the refractive quality of the opposite surface of the grip (i.e. like how a prism will act like a mirror on some angles, except when wet), and shows just the surface of the painted metal. That is why in some angles the broken grip piece just disappears and you can only see the black.

It is possible that triangle top part (or as Rich used to call them "wings"), is sanded a bit down to fit perhaps, but the rest of that outer grip is black including the very edges next to the part in question. It makes no sense to paint the rest and then mask off that part, and just that surface only. It is not consistent with the rest of it. Plus it is still darker than the dark steel next to it.

From my experience with different materials, the characteristic I described above are consistent to the materials that seem present. If not I say paint it black and then you can carefully sand it off to make it match more closely to what you see. It would be a lot easier than just masking off the small section of the grip frame when you paint the rest black anyway.

Andy

[andy]

From those pictures you posted above I am 100% what you are seeing is the refractive quality of the plastic and the flash shining back.

Andy

[andy]

See how in this picture you can see the grip pattern reflected back on the the inside of the grip?

[andy]

For an example of what I am talking about take a piece of clear plastic and place it on a shiny black surface and look at it from an extreme angle. Then try it again with some water between it. You will see the reflection of the sky without the water, and then the black surface where there is water. Thus the reason why in the spots that there was probably glue, the reflection is gone and the black shows more clearly.

The higher density the material the greater the refractive quality and therefore it would not only reflect back at a shorter angle. it would also act more like a magnifier. Exactly as we see here.

Andy

[drmcoy]

Andy,

Thanks for your considered response and marking up photos to illustrate your point.

I am not 100% convinced that all inside frame is black, but I can not refute the points you made, all of which are legitimate.

Your advice of painting grips all black and weathering them is sound, and, as you pointed out, should we ever get 100% confirmation that certain areas are NOT black, it would be easy enough to sand off the unwanted paint.

I remain puzzled why the black "wings" are in such contrast to the other areas that do not look black in comparison even though both are under amber plastic, but I suppose I'll have to chalk this up to a photographic anomaly or simply my bad eyes.

Or that I'm actually right and everyone else is wrong
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teckel@bellsouth.net

[andy]

Another experiment you could do would be to place the grips themselves onto a black material and take photos from different angles and with a flash close up. You would see the reflection and the glowing/fogging effect flash has on it. You would not see the black material behind it looking "black" however.

The more I look at your pictures it also seems the white background reflecting off of it is also a big part of the illusion. So putting a white back ground piece next to the grips to see how much it changes the look of the material.

Andy

[drmcoy]

Makes perfect sense.

But the wing on the right side of grip still confuses me -- why the black wing on this side is so prominent in contrast to the area surrounding it that is not black??

However, my eyes and brain have overloaded on this subject and I'll leave it to Andy -- and others who wish to contribute to this thread -- to hash it all out.

Again, thanks for your well-thought out responses, Andy. It proves what I said at the outset, and that is you can never trust photographs 100% to determine exact colors.
_________________
teckel@bellsouth.net

[andy]

Again, I blame that on a glue (or once wet paint) that acts like a wet substance in between. I have seen it many times before and that is why I am so certain.

Andy

[panzerrune]

As an experiment i took my SIDKIT and angled the amber grips at various degrees and with various light changes and the unpainted/non-blued metal under the grips and the "wing tips" that were painted gloss black by drmcoy appeared to vanish and come back again by the slightest angle change. This does show for fact that looking through the amber grips does for fact alter the color of what is underneath them (the grip frame/assembly). I am really leaning toward painting the outer grip frame and leaving the inner frame untouched, and doing slight weathering to the gloss black painted areas as deemed fit. My honest opinion, i think it is nearly impossible to know exactly what entirely gets painted under the grips and what does not!? The dream now would be too see that WC heroprop with the amber grips OFF! Now that would be nice, the quest would be over and the mystery solved.

Thanks.

[andy]

The inner grip frame is also "blackened". It is aluminum that is anodized or blackened, but it has considerable wear. Most likely because it was from a well used gun to begin with. If anybody has a real bulldog or Charter arms Pistol that would be willing to show them with the grips removed you might see a similar wear pattern.

Another reason why they would be so worn is that they would not have been painted after assembly as did some of the external parts. Therefore they would have been put into clamps to have the holes drilled and tapped into them to get the outer grip frame attached.

Also the large hole in the back of the grip frame cuts into the center grip frame as well (possibly for electronics). That inner original bulldog frame has been manhandled () and shows a lot more wear.

It can easily be replicated using some fine grit sandpaper the the edges of the inner frame. I plan on using "blacken it" for the inside frame to more closely replicate the original CA BD frame, instead of painting. I am not sure how it will work on pewter though. It can be found at Hobby Shops that carry railroading stuff.

The main Bull Dog frame is not Blackened, or blued that I can tell. It is darker so it is possible it was blued at one time and just worn, or the darkness is just the staining of the steel over time and use.

Andy

[panzerrune]

Guys,

I have weighed all the photographic evidence and what Andy and drmcoy has pointed out here and in another similar thread on the messageboard.

I pulled the amber grips off of my SIDKIT tonight and painted gloss black the outer and inner grip frames. I did not paint the inside sections of the frames, just the outer left and right sides that the inside of the amber grips will be facing directly. The black painted grip frame should also tone back to a darker level the amber grips and pull some of that orange tinge out of them, which is good to my eyes. I will let it dry a good 24 hours and then proceed to weather them and balance the levels of the paint out to match as i used a brush and it shows. Once the amber grips are back on any showing of my less than pro paint job will be hidden, those grips as we all know have a almost magical quality in manipulating and hiding what we see and what we may want too see. When finished i will hope to have a mediated cross between black and some bare metal. I have hit the best of both worlds then.

Thanks.

[clutch]

Pic of my Coyle that I repainted. On this older model, he doesn't have the hole cut in the outer frame toward the front (where your fingers wrap around). Because of this, there is even more surface area that is black. If you look at this photo, that area looks lighter color. This is because of the reflective properties of the grips.