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NEW CS&T Blaster by Richard Coyle
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Once-bitten
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 18, 2007 8:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

That's fair of you to say...although here is the next sentence for clarity:

"It has also gotten Richard's attention, which is what it was meant to do..."

It got Rich's attention long enough for him to write me back with an ultimatum about sending the blaster back to him so he could decide whether or not to give me anything at all in return.

By the way...the words "Silly and Childish" were Richards descriptions of my concerns..."poorly written" was an honest assesment on my part.

As for the rest...correct me if I'm wrong but a big part of this forum concerns The Blade-Runner Blaster...if my rant of a review helps to inform ONE PERSON about this guy or saves anyone what I went through in dealing with him...by all means call it a quest.
Oh...and will someone please tell Richard that there's NO "T" in the word enough?
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Once-bitten
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 18, 2007 8:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Oh...and I am sorry about the "Pop-ups"...that's TRIPOD not me.
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racprops
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 18, 2007 8:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The opinions expressed by Mr. Smith are suspect. He tried to extort a refund out of me by threatening to post negative reviews about the prop.

It seems he bought a metal kit from someone else within one or two weeks of buying my model.

Whoops! He didn’t need two.

He revealed having bought this other model around three weeks after having received my model. He said he’d wanted to use my model as a costume prop and blames me for not making clear enough that my model is primarily display only. This newer addition was apparently better suited for rough handling.

Okay, the customer is always right, right? I made an offer to work a deal with him only to have it thrown back in my face and received additional venom for my trouble, so I will have nothing further to do with him.

True to what he’d threatened, when I failed to give him what he demanded, he started this campaign of harrassment.

He was abusive from the beginning, I believe, because he had already apparrently trashed the model in his mishandling of it. This means he has a ruined model and thus cannot return a good model for a normal refund.
His only recourse, he thought, was to attempt to bully me into it.

He hatched this scheme to blackmail me into giving him a full/partial refund in advance of my receiving the broken model. He would then “reward” my cooperation by taking down a negative review and not defaming me.

Looks to me like this review is not so much a warning to other buyers but a Nerf cudgel for me.

The urban legends about me he cites amused me.

So if you want to see a funny review of the model, you should enjoy his rantings. I know I sure did, I was laughing so hard I got tears in my eyes.

Rich
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Last edited by racprops on Wed Apr 18, 2007 8:53 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Once-bitten
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 18, 2007 8:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ahhh...the great Rich has spoken.

To be clear here Rich, it is "my" money we are talking about so it would be a little hard for me to "Blackmail" you out of it.
I "Offered" to not post the review in the first place if we could simply work out a Partial return of funds...I wanted to try to be fair after all.
I purchased the Metal Blaster AFTER recieving yours and realizing that yours could barely be handled. It was infact scratched and had stripped screw holes when it arrived. Is it my fault the lady was good enough to drop-ship the Metal Blaster within a week rather than keeping me waiting three months? And yes, the metal blaster actually feels like a real gun in my hand and it fits wonderfully in the holster I purchased from Phil Steinschneider too. I should have pics of the Metal Blaster with holster up soon.
I've given up trying to get any of my money back from you but I certainly wasn't about to simply return the Blaster to you as you demanded when you couldn't even be bothered to return me the overcharge on shipping.
By all means laugh, all the way to the bank...with my money...
It's YOU that's suspect ...if I can get a few people to really look at the Blaster you are selling BEFORE they buy, I'll consider it my good deed for the year.
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jhyphen
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 19, 2007 5:56 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I don't know "once-bitten" from a can of paint, but I certainly believe he's entitled to his opinion. I think it's bad to discourage anyone from sharing their views, however unpopular or out of step with the conventional thinking. That's why the RPF is such a mess and a shadow of its former self. The fact that people can come here and speak their minds is one of the things that makes this forum a cut above....

Anyway, the reviewer's alleged motives aside, I agree 100% with his assessment on the quality of the piece. I have owned two and I was completely disappointed. I ended up giving both away. They were flimsy and poorly finished. The grip frame on one broke after casual handling. And as the reviewer noted, the thing creaks when you put the slightest pressure on it, as if it's going to snap in two.

Regarding the antagonism between the reviewer and the maker, it goes back to a simple axiom:

Do a good job and I'll tell a friend. Do a bad job and I'll tell ten (or in this case, many more).

As long as I've known Rich, his (main) Achilles heel is a stubborn inability to see past his parochial, short-term interests and do what's right (which, typically, is the savvy move anyway). Firsthand I've seen him blow several lucrative opportunities because of what struck me as greed and shortsightedness.

If someone is unhappy with your handiwork, refund his money, take it back, and show the world that you are a stand-up guy. To call a negative review "blackmail" is outrageous and the epitome of hubris, especially when it's not an isolated opinion.

Also, I had to laugh at a phenomenon that I, too, have noticed; namely, in day-to-day communications Rich can barely write a coherent sentence. Sometimes his prose looks like it was written by a blind monkey on crack.

But if you say something that seems to threaten his interests, it's amazing how lucid and even articulate he becomes.

Methinks there be a ghostwriter.... Philippes mayhaps? Razz

He's been accused of outsourcing his actual prop making. Maybe he outsources his posting, too, when he's in over his head.

All kidding aside, I do feel sadly to see a guy I once went to bat for behave in a manner I find quite unbecoming.

I think the whole Worldcon thing was a real turning point for me and many people, and since then the myth of Richard Coyle has given way to a sadder reality. Like other fallen idols in the hobby, I think this one made the tragic mistake of surrounding himself with panderers, flatterers, and users, while believing his own press.

OK, ghostwriter...your turn....
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racprops
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 19, 2007 1:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I normally work with people. I normally work out refunds. This was not a normal case.

A normal exchange is someone buys a product, finds he/she is unhappy with the item within the first couple of hours or days if not the minute it is removed from the package. It does not take three weeks.

When he got the model, he said: “Rich, I thought I would let you know that the C,S&T Blaster arrived today and it looks great! Thank you.” So I guess he had no problems with it YET?

A normal exchange of a complaint is: I am unhappy, this and that is wrong, can you make repairs, give me a replacement or refund?

This exchange started three weeks after he received his model and turned unpleasant in short order.

At first I thought this was a case of buyer’s remorse. He changed his mind, needed money to pay a bill, it happens. Or in this case he bought a different model. After several tries to find out what was wrong, he attacked:

“Well, the short version is...
It's a piece of crap in my humble opinion and I was
overcharged for it.
What craftsman doesn't know when he's selling an
over-priced piece of crap? I would say that 99% of
them do, that's if they take any kind of pride in
their work and or concern for their customer's
satisfaction.
Resell it you say? I wouldn't have the mean spirited
lack of conscience to foist it on to some other
un-knowing fan of the movie.
So, simply put, can I get my money back or not?
---Paul E. Smith”

After 40 years of dealing with customers, his attitude set off alarms. We had departed the land of normal.

Then, as he himself said, make a refund OR I will do a harsh review. Is this not blackmail or extortion?

So things got worse.

Like any other company who hopes to remain in business, I said that to receive a refund you need to return the product for inspection and it has to be in the condition you received it in.

He made an offer of taking $75.00 off the refund. That suggested he was aware of his own part in damaging the model. And with his level of hostility it suggested a lot of damage.

I did offer that I would allow for his claims of stripped screws and some paint damage and even allow for the claimed broken front trigger and/or frame.

As I read his review it seemed clear he had torn into the model. When I read that he got a holster from Phil, I can picture he broke the model pulling it from the holster. I have always said this holster is not intended for use with this model. I don't sell any holsters with this model.

After he posted his review, I learned of his main complaint, that it was not usable as a costume prop. This was somewhat justified.

But I never claimed it could be used as a costume prop. I have called it a model for years, for that is what it is.

Nonetheless I made him an offer. Return the model, and if it can be repaired and resold, I would give him his refund.

And again he rejected the offer and started dictating terms, that I send him $235.00 with no return of anything.

I have the impression the model is completely busted up and totally un-returnable. Between that and his uncivil attitude, I could see no reason to go on with this person.

To avoid possible future mis-buys I am now emphasizing at every turn that this is a display model, not a toy, and not a stunt prop.

I did make a stunt model that has less moving parts and could take abuse. To make such a model meant dropping the working hammer, working bolt, cylinder, and so on.

Sales were very poor for that model.


Rich
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amish
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 19, 2007 2:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Not taking any sides, but maybe Once-bitten can post pictures or something to show what was or is wrong with the blaster. I think that would help Rich and others that are looking at this blaster for a possible purchase.

Just a thought.

Tom
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andy
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 19, 2007 4:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think one of the big issues here is that the market place has changed significantly in the past 10 years. Because of companys like Master Replicas and BR guns like the Off World and Sid Kit versions, as well as Cos Play, a lot more is expected of "prop" replicas. Durability and cost, play much more into the desirability of a prop then before.

To Rich's credit he has always tried to make the most accurately "detailed" props. This also has become a bone of contention to those that have paid a price expecting the "end all be all" Blade Runner gun when he then comes out with a new more accurate gun deflating the value of the one they bought. This is mostly the fault of the buyer though for not doing the research themselves. I hope that this site can help new buyers of the gun props from now on. I can say I personally decided on NOT buying a full C&S from Rich a long time ago, and only purchased mine second hand at a much lower price. I felt the price was too high for my personal abilty to afford and also did not feel his Paint/Build up gave me any more feeling of accuracy than any kit would for me at a much lower price. Rich's guns are meant to be Museum pieces, but the market for that is very limited. I also think Rich could use better quality Resins in his props ( I am curious as to whether or not he owns a pressure molding tank?). I very much would like to own one of Rich's metal guns, but I can not afford to do so. I was once told by(edit) another prop collector it is better to save up for one "best" prop rather(edit) then buying several lesser props. I could understand if the person who told me to save up for the RAC gun now feels differently. As a collector, it is not about owning the one "end all be all" for me but samples of each. So I feel no personal animosity toward Rich at all. I just need to be objective and honest to possibly help others including Rich come to terms with their emotional responses.

Once Bitten's posts are obviously a bit of a personal flame. But I do hope that Rich can understand that if he want's to keep being able to do business with Blade Runner guns, the concerns of OB(and the many others like him) will have to be addressed. If an at least warning buyers of the limitations of the replica he sells. The market for these guns has changed and I hope Rich can understand this and rise to the task in order to be able to regain his Title and throne


Last edited by andy on Fri Apr 20, 2007 12:29 am; edited 2 times in total
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bbabich
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 19, 2007 5:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well, here we go again… a member presents a detailed critique of Coyle’s work and Coyle launches into a campaign to discredit him. I posted my viewpoint having seen and handled Coyle’s CSTXYZ pieces and Coyle disregards my critique as some simple, random banter.

Having read OB’s blog on this piece, the pluses and minuses of the CSTXYZ are reasonable, unfortunately his labor of expressing reasonable ways to improve Coyle’s piece are wasted as Coyle is not interested in critique, he is only interested in praise.

Rich, I have asked you time and time again, look at what reasonable people are saying about your work and find ways to improve it.

I fault myself for not calling you over at the Phoenix Comic Con a few months ago to go over my issues of the blaster in person as the new version was in my hands; however you were pretty busy promoting your adopt a prop program and sadly JR had fallen asleep. Even if I had mentioned the many issues with the piece, I don’t think it would have done any good, look how much good it has done here.

Andy, you are a good online buddy, and an optimist. A point about the resin, you don’t even have to pressure cast to get decent results, others use slow curing resin and have fantastic results…

-Bryan
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racprops
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 19, 2007 5:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks, Andy, you’re hitting the nail on the head in many cases.

I personally did not set out to make changes and thus update the models (Thereby deflating the value of earlier models), rather threads like the one Phil started a couple of years ago called something like “Urban Legends about the Blade Runner Blaster” that caused the changes that took us from the Version 3 to the 4.8.

These updates came about from the discoveries and proofs of detailing that you, the fans yourselves found, that I tried to incorporate into my models at your request.

With this new model I have driven myself nearly into backruptcy, building and rebuilding this model trying to make it the final version. So far I have only produced fifteen copies, one of which went to Mr. Smith, and only he has had any complaint.

I think I have done a good job.

And I will do as much as I can to allow each buyer of an earlier copy of this Worldcon model to send it back for any upgrades and improvements and at the lowest possible costs.

Think of it like the upgradable computer. (really) Or the VW Bug.

I have offered a discount of $100.00 to buyers of the version 4.8, and a $200.00 discount to buyers of the All Metal models with sound.

The problem with flexing is that, in order to recreate the model, I have had to use the Bulldog pistol for the model. This gun has a pair of thin plates from the cylinder back to the pistol grip. Inside this space is the hammer.

In steel flexing isn’t an issue, but in plastic, it’s a problem. The Bulldog it has a separate pistol frame, all other gun makers use a solid frame and pistol grip for good reason.

I am looking into ways to fix this, gluing the grips and frame together, (losing a little of its accuracy in teardown) or using the metal pistol frame and perhaps the metal grip frame.

Problem is that the last idea only leaves the Steyr receiver and Bulldog cylinder in plastic, which means I cannot afford to sell it at the plastic prices.

Might as well step up to the metal model and drop the plastic model.

One other idea is to drop the working hammer, and perhaps the cylinder and thus make the rear of the Bulldog stronger by filling in those spaces.

As for the plastic I have not found any plastic that will do all these things: be as versatile as my urethane yet take 4/40 threads and not get stripped out, be water thin and allow me to dye it black.

IF you know of such a plastic I am willing to try it.

It is a little like the old joke: You can get it cheap, you can get it well detailed (accurate), you can get it tough as iron, now pick one.

Rich
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 19, 2007 7:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sorry to take so long to chime back in here...

I'm more than willing to admit that I blew my cork a bit and went on a flame run, some of the more resonable voices here have convinced me of that and to them I say :Thank-you!

I'm not much for digging into old E-mails to try to prove a point, any sane mind knows that you can prove just about anything with quote's or comments taken out of context, and quite frankly I just don't have the energy to continue playing "He said/She said" as I have allready told Rich.

I think Amish's suggestion is a good one, though I'm not certain photo's would prove anything other than the fact that I pulled that front trigger when I shouldn't have and got a couple of holes in the frame as a result. Possibly to Rich it would finally show that I didn't throw the Blaster against the wall or attempt any re-casting as he has suggested more than once.

It sounds like Rich has some decent guy's here who's suggestions he will listen to... that sounds potentially positive.
At this point I'm headed over to my "Review" where I plan to remove all the un-kind "snarky-non-impartial-speak"...
Perhaps Rich could find it in his heart to refund to me whatever money's of mine that he didn't use for shipping.If he can do that I suppose I can be big enough to let the matter drop and chalk the whole thing up to experience..and that, I would say, is an attempt at extending an olive branch...too little of that going on these days.
Everyone have a great week-end! I'm off to Oregon to visit my Girl-Friend and celebrate my 40th Birthday!!!
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Noeland
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 19, 2007 7:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

EDited - posted before I read OB's last add on to the thread.
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racprops
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 19, 2007 8:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Paul, if only…

I can understand your misunderstanding about the nature of my model. And I recognize I could have made its fragility more plain in my advertizing copy.

But I will try to make it more clear in the future, as Norland has said it, is a well known fact.

IF only you had just explained the problem to me. We could have worked it out.

We did not need to get into a war.

First I will send you the $12.20 refund from the shipping charge.

Now here is a new (old) offer.

IF you still want to, send the model back. If it is as you say it is, I can just replace the main frame and do a little touch up and so on, so that it then can be sold as a used model.
I will accept your earlier offer of $75.00 off the refund. And I will send you a check for $370.00 out right after I receive and inspect the model.

In-between your anger I did read and appreciate that offer and it was one reason I did try to work with you.

I felt that you were making a fair offer in that.

40 ? Many happy returns.

Rich
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racprops
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 19, 2007 8:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

To those that say I do not pay attention to their critiques, I have, but no one has ever offered a single suggestion on how to fix the problem, you can tell me all the things you think are wrong, but not one real thing that can help fix them.

Truly, do you think that if there was a fix I would not use it?

The only fixes I know of are:
A) Make it out of metal.
B) Use a real Bulldog.
C) Fill the space where the hammer is and perhaps do the cylinder as well and make the pistol grip a part of the pistol casting.
D) Make the side walls double thick.

A) I am doing that but it costs so much more.
B) Gun laws are an issue, and it will add $300.00 to the costs.
C) This might work IF people will still buy it without a working hammer and flip out cylinder.
D) Again we lose the accuracy and either have too fat a model OR lose the hammer again.

Your requests and complaints are heard, but I cannot work miracles, I haven’t yet found a casting plastic that is as tough as steel but not as brittle as glass.

Rich
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tain669
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 19, 2007 9:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I don't know who you are Once- Bitten but I don't like all this infighting on this thread.I like Rich's blaster flr the fact that it's nice and I don't like recastes of other people work.If you got a beef don't air your dealing here please.I get enough of this over at the RPF and I'm kind of tired of it.Please settle your differents in private.Thanks
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racprops
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 19, 2007 10:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sorry tain669 that this even showed up here.

I did try to work it out and will try once again.

I too like to enjoy the good fellowship of fellow fans with out fighting.

Again I am sorry for my part in all of this.

Rich
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 19, 2007 10:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Not your fault Rich.Keep Strong and pay no mind to this guy.Take care and God Bless
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andy
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 20, 2007 12:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

It seems like this potential flame war ended with possibility for true reconciliation and maybe also improvements in Rich's product and communication.

I like the possible idea of a product review thread for old and new prop replicas alike. Each replica could also have it's own thread. It is the idea of the creators of this site (please correct me if I am wrong amish and darkknight0667) to not censor anyone, but if some comments get out of hand they may be moved into the back alley, so as to not detract from the thread topic or turn off those that are just looking for information, not drama.

The best advice though is to stay on topic and be factual as possible. Personal attacks (or supports) do not actually help in making these products better, or inform the readers , sellers and buyers. Everybody is entitled to their opinion, but nobody has to agree with them. And being insulting will most likely influence people to side with the other guy(or girl).
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 20, 2007 6:15 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Nice that a potential rapprochement is in the works. Nonetheless, I stand by my assessment, which is based on years of firsthand experience.

Cheers.
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amish
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 20, 2007 7:57 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Andy, I think you hit the nail on the head

Propsummit does not believe in infighting, but it will occur. We do feel quite strongly about allowing people to voice their opinions without fear of having a thread locked, deleted, or edited. Propsummit was created on the basis that people should be able to share their views about this hobby even if it may differ from the norm.

I am going to quote our Community Guidelines as I think they do a nice job summing up our take on situations:

Quote:
Forum Behavior:
While it is believed that each person can be responsible for their own posting, it is also understood that controversies may arise. If community members are having problems with one another, it is asked that this controversy not disrupt the main forum. It is preferable that all problems be settled outside of Prop Summit and in private, but this may not be the case in all instances. The Pit was created so that any problems that may arise with community members may be settled in a place that will not disrupt the entire forum. As well, any threads that go off topic because of problems will be moved to The Pit where discussion may continue, but not at the expense of the entire community. It is understood that people have different opinions and ideals. These opinions and ideals will be treated with fairness and equality when determining if posts should be moved to The Pit or left where they started.

Community Expectations:
It is expected of the community membership that each person will be responsible for themselves. It should also be noted that threats, illegal activity, pornographic posts, or anything that could create legal liability will be modified, or deleted. Each time a problem occurs, the member in question will be contacted to discuss what course of action is needed.


The entire Community Guide can be read here:
http://propsummit.com/viewtopic.php?t=3

In the end, I think both Rich and Once-Bitten will both do what is right for them as it seems they are now working on a resolution.

Thanks!

Tom
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