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joberg
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 08, 2011 12:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Good analogy about the chess game Batty plays with his accolytes: he has a goal and nothing/no-one will keep him from reaching it!
As Zhora's role, it's still unclear what is it she's supposed to be doing...in the grand scheme of things.
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Vader
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 08, 2011 1:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

joberg wrote:
As Zhora's role, it's still unclear what is it she's supposed to be doing...in the grand scheme of things.

Indeed ... so, speculation?
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Art Deckard
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 08, 2011 6:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Vader wrote:

Indeed ... so, speculation?


I dunno, I'll admit to always thinking she was just bringing in a few extra bucks.

Maybe she lead the assault on Tyrell and is now just laying low after witnessing her two friends getting their arses fried.

Could we work in the snake somehow? Did Abdul Ben-Hassan have Tyrell connections?
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TimeEnough
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 08, 2011 6:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Maybe she lead the assault on Tyrell and is now just laying low after witnessing her two friends getting their arses fried.

This is what I figured. Pris seemed to be lost so I'm not sure if she found Sabastian on purpose or not. Though that would be amazing if it were Roy's doing. My impression is that everyone got scattered after the attack on Tyrell.

The entire scene with Zhora felt like the replicants had achieved human essence. Even human beauty. But one clue about the snake is that the scale was found in the apartment, yes? Which means she was a dancer while the gang was still together.
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Art Deckard
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 08, 2011 6:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

TimeEnough wrote:
This is what I figured. Pris seemed to be lost so I'm not sure if she found Sabastian on purpose or not.


As JF turns to open his apartment door her sweet smile disappears and she eyes him malevolently. There's even a little musical sting that sounds ominous. She knows who he is. It's all a ploy and coming after we've seen Roy extract JF's name and address from poor old Chew it'd be too much of a coincidence, I think.
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andy
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 08, 2011 7:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Don't forget that in Leon's photo, Deckard finds both Roy and Zhora in it.

Andy
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The Loyalizer
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 09, 2011 12:57 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Art Deckard wrote:
Vader wrote:

Indeed ... so, speculation?


I dunno, I'll admit to always thinking she was just bringing in a few extra bucks.

Maybe she lead the assault on Tyrell and is now just laying low after witnessing her two friends getting their arses fried.

Could we work in the snake somehow? Did Abdul Ben-Hassan have Tyrell connections?


I felt she was using the dancer routine to bring in money in a capacity that wouldn't attract law enforcement attention. Now, the Egyptian might not have had any connections to Tyrell, but he is in the business of artificials, and likely he might know someone who is connected to the company.

As far as the snake goes, just don't ask Bullet Bob how he feels about Hassan. Wink
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Vader
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 09, 2011 2:28 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I doubt the group has scattered:
-Leon reports to Roy after having failed to retrieve his photos.
-Leon also comes to Zhora's job (or keeps an eye on it? what is the plan!?), just in time to see Deckard retire her.
-And, there can be no doubt Roy sends Pris to Sebastian based on the info from Chew. And even if there was, it would perforce have disappeared the moment Pris called him over once she'd made contact.

We can't take too much of what we see the fugitive replicants do in their interactions towards people around them at face value: Leon's "stupid worker" act to Holden, Zhora's "sexy showgirl" act to Deckard, Pris' "lost kitten" act to Sebastian. They're all brilliant people, playing parts carefully crafted to further an agenda.

As far as Zhora's job goes - she might be wiping floors somewhere and not attract attention. Why something so elaborate and public? It seems hardly coincidental.
And why does she blow a gasket at Deckard? I can't recall him in any way revealing that he's a BureedoRanna; he's just being obnoxious, doing an act of his own. So why does she break her cover and attack him?

Is the answer to the second question simply that Deckard, with his "sleazy voyeur" act, pushes enough of Zhora's insecure, still-nascent emotional buttons to push her over the brink in a frenzy of replicant instability - an improvised, albeit dangerous, V-K test, if you will?

Or are the answers to these two questions somehow connected?

(While we're on the subject of Zhora's snake: why do artificial snakes have scales the same way fish do?)
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andy
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 09, 2011 2:59 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Vader wrote:

(While we're on the subject of Zhora's snake: why do artificial snakes have scales the same way fish do?)


Because the people working on the film didn't realize that snakes don't really have scales, but instead skin that folds to look like scales....plot hole because they didn't do their research I guess. Of course I always assumed snakes would have scales too. Very few people actually catch this.

Andy
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Vader
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 09, 2011 4:28 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

andy wrote:
Because the people working on the film didn't realize that snakes don't really have scales


Well, yes - but now that we're stuck with that plot hole, can we find a good in-world rationale to explain it?

Afterthought:
My assumption, too, was always that this is an uneducated oversight. But is it?
It struck me that in the production, they would have had plenty of opportunity to rectify it, what with actually having real snakes on set and whatnot. And one would have assumed that they'd at the very latest have realised their mistake when they started looking for an actual snake scale for Deckard to find in the bath tub ... but still it remains.
It would have been easy for them to substitute the scale for a biologically correct (and visually no less interesting; quite the opposite) piece of shed snake skin, but they do not.

So, is there actually some thought behind it?
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joberg
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 09, 2011 8:07 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm sure Zhora has her purpose (maybe with the money she got, she could pay their apt. rent...seems to me that they shacked together at one point or another: Leon pics. We never see them eat, do they need food in the first place?..another question I guess).

I like Vader idea about the improvised V.K. test in her change room; she's not sure where these questions are leading and maybe her set default is: in case of doubt, stike first, strike hard and get out!

I'm with Vader, and others concerning Pris...she has to locate JF, befriend him and then let Batty into the apt. Is JF aware that's unlawfull to harbor Replicants, or is he too fascinated by them to do anything about it?
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Vader
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 09, 2011 11:02 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

As I say, if it's just a question of paying the rent, that money they can make anywhere - sweeping streets, if nothing else. Why choose a job that is so elaborate and public?

I doubt the explanation why Zhora attacks Deckard is anything so simple as just a default programming taking over - after all, they're not computers, they're physical, right?
I'm therefore thinking it ought to be either complex plot driven, or complex psychological.
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andy
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 09, 2011 3:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I remember reading an article about strippers, and how many of them were pretty much regular people, and when asked why they became strippers, one said that, "low paying jobs are actually hard to find and just as degrading, while there is always openings in this field, and the pay is a lot better." Plus it just makes a more interesting "Noir" film to do it this way. Smile

For reference, in the book she was an opera singer.

Andy
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Vader
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 09, 2011 5:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

True, certainly.

However, if I recall correctly, the implication in the scene is that the snake is her own ("if I could afford a real snake, do you think I'd work in a place like this," or words to a similar effect), and it's already been indicated that even artificial animals aren't necessarily very cheap.

I therefore can't escape the feeling that since the position as snake charmer is publicly visible, a bit on the elaborate side, and carries an overhead cost (purchase & possible maintenance of scaly snake) ... getting the "Salome" gig seems like a bit too much risk, cost, and general bother just to make ends meet in what from their viewpoint obviously must be an operational situation, with the expiration time clock fast approaching midnight.
Talk about "deadline"...
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Art Deckard
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 09, 2011 6:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Vader wrote:
As I say, if it's just a question of paying the rent, that money they can make anywhere - .


I would suggest that working as an erotic dancer in a sleazy joint like the Snake Pit is an obvious choice for a physically attractive female rep who wants to get hired quick, (no questions asked) and earn decent money (tips etc) whilst remaining 'off the grid'. LA 2019's sleazy underbelly of bars and clubs is the ideal hiding place.
'are your licenses in order pal'? asks Deckard knowing full well they probably aren't. There's probably too much regulation and monitoring involved in working as a street sweeper. Plus the beautiful nightclub entertainer is kind of a Noir staple so I think that there wasn't much more to it than that.


Pris might be a military pleasure model but I'm not sure that's her normal attire she's got on. I always thought she was either posing as or working as a street hooker.
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Art Deckard
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 09, 2011 6:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sorry Andy, missed your post.
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Art Deckard
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 09, 2011 6:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

joberg wrote:
Is JF aware that's unlawfull to harbor Replicants, or is he too fascinated by them to do anything about it?


He seems simultaneously scared, fascinated and sympathetic. When he has a little weep (it's hardly even that) it's like he knows that this is going to end badly and he's powerless to stop it. Its a great character , brilliantly portrayed.
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Art Deckard
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 09, 2011 6:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Vader wrote:
andy wrote:
Because the people working on the film didn't realize that snakes don't really have scales


Well, yes - but now that we're stuck with that plot hole, can we find a good in-world rationale to explain it?


It was an oversight but one that nobody noticed till it was pointed out. Besides Snakes DO have scales, just not ones that shed individually. I watched the dissection of a python on TV recently and the snake expert referred to them as 'scales' and pulled an individual one away from the skin. It's not really a plot hole but for fun we could say that Abdul Ben Hassans Snakes were shoddily constructed Laughing

EDIT: A quick trawl through some Snake forums suggests that illness is the underlying cause of scale shedding. That or humidity.
So an error in manufacturing or shoddy treatment at the hands of a replicant human leading to illness. It lived in the bath at 1187 Hunterwasser for a while, the poor thing.
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Art Deckard
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 09, 2011 7:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

You ever buy snakes from the Egyptian, Taffey?

Abdul Ben Hassan states it was Taffy Lewis who bought the snake. Maybe Zhora is paying him back out of her wages.

Between us, we'll get this sucker ironed out once and for all! Wink
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andy
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 09, 2011 7:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I also have a feeling that Zhora may have aleady had experience doing this kind of thing. Maybe as a part of her role as an undercover hit woman. Mata Hari anyone?

Andy
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