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Design Thread: Nostromo interiors and deck configurations
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Space Jockey
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 20, 2017 11:38 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

retrogarde wrote:
Graham, do the retractable back landing legs conflict with your engine room placement, or would this all fit between them? And where is the Narcissus docked in this diagram?

There's no way to no to have a lot of dead space inside this ship. Even with multiple garages there's a lot of unaccounted for room. Filling it becomes tricky as you can't introduce elements that countermine the plot.


Well the back landing legs, not too worried about. They tuck into the two side 'nacelles' to use a Trek term. I'm not worried about the large Reactor Chamber (I think this was a term used in Alien: Isolation for the reactor area on Sevastopol) either. In the movie you see the windows of the Engine Rm and the large 'columns' either side at the edge of the shot. So by taking the behind the scenes photos out of the equation, and by going only what you see in the movie, I'm comfortable it'll fit.

The trickiest parts by far is 'Scale' and its relationship between the A-Deck layout, the size of the undercarriage feet (and therfore the garage and undercarriage room), and the Narcissus. All of them clash. This is down to the differences between the Set and Modelwork comparing scale. It is also down to the use of smaller children in EVA suits in one scene (leaving Nostromo and comparing their size to an undercarriage foot) and then the adult actors in the undercarriage room scenes - as just one example. So there are all these elements at play and it's a case of trying to reach a happy medium between all of them.

I likely have the undercarriage 'foot/claw' as it hangs in the image above oversized. Truthfully speaking the garage shown here is also oversized going by how it appears in relation to A-Deck and those set blueprints and comparing it to dimensions shown on the Garage set blueprints. So I'm wrestling with it at the moment. It'll get there. I have a bunch of B-Deck sketched out now. The Narcissus in the above diagram falls in line with the small 'placeholder' room I've shown directly below A-Deck. The location of the corridor leading to Narcissus is a headscratcher.

To fill in the blank areas, there are ways to do it without undermining what we see in the movie. How do we get from the Docking Tube to B-Deck? Where are the airlocks and what is connected to them? What is the purpose of the Nostromo? Is it just a tug? What is all the other equipment in the Garages used for and how does it get there? What about rooms to store / clean the EVA suits and decontaminate? If it's towing a refinery, maybe it's geological surveying equipment or something else. So if it's geosurvey equipment, are there rooms on the Nostromo to store geo samples or analyse it? It's probably small-scale stuff with the large equipment actually within the refinery, but you get the picture. It's a space-planning exercise. So what you have to do is find the functionality and the design language and come up with something that works. For an example of a group of folks that did this incredibly well, go play Alien: Isolation.
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joberg
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 20, 2017 3:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

You're doing a fine job, since it's reverse engineering at its best
Difficult, as you said to fit the corridor leading to the Narcissus and the ship itself... Confused
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Vader
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 20, 2017 5:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

joberg wrote:
As long as the initial inertia has been produced by the "Pull Ship" (Nostromo in this instance), the whole will start to move and even accelerate over time without any imput from the engines.
??? Shocked Shocked Shocked ???
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Cold Canuck
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 20, 2017 6:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Um...what would make it speed up, assuming no external influences?

I remember being impressed with how the FX showed the Nostromo pulling away from the refinery...it produced a sense of weight being moved slowly, then relying on gravity to introduce the ship to the outer atmosphere.
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joberg
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 21, 2017 4:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yes, I know, it sounds weird, but I read (a looooonnnnggg time ago) about the physics of sail ships in space (if they would build such ship).
I distinctively remember the NASA scientist saying that a initial "push" was necessary for the ship to move through space, but after that, the rays of the Sun were sufficient to accelerate that ship without any engine input after that.
On the contrary, to avoid destroying the vessel, the operator has to break!
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 21, 2017 5:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The tough part is providing enough delta-v to get you started in the right direction...it also makes some sense to me that there would have to be some sort of control system to make the thousands or even millions of minor course corrections to allow the tug to remain in an efficient trajectory from point A - B.
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Cold Canuck
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 21, 2017 6:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

joberg wrote:
Yes, I know, it sounds weird, but I read (a looooonnnnggg time ago) about the physics of sail ships in space (if they would build such ship).
I distinctively remember the NASA scientist saying that a initial "push" was necessary for the ship to move through space, but after that, the rays of the Sun were sufficient to accelerate that ship without any engine input after that.
On the contrary, to avoid destroying the vessel, the operator has to break!


Sorry, I didn't realize that you meant sail ships.
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Vader
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 21, 2017 8:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

joberg wrote:
Yes, I know, it sounds weird, but I read (a looooonnnnggg time ago) about the physics of sail ships in space (if they would build such ship).
I distinctively remember the NASA scientist saying that a initial "push" was necessary for the ship to move through space, but after that, the rays of the Sun were sufficient to accelerate that ship without any engine input after that.
On the contrary, to avoid destroying the vessel, the operator has to break!


The Nostromo has a solar sail?!?

I never realised...

(For reference here's what one looks like. This one's really small, though; only able to move a kilo or so, and with very, very, very gradual acceleration: https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/theplanetarysociety/lightsail-a-revolutionary-solar-sailing-spacecraft?ref=discovery)


Btw, Jo did you have a source for the Nostromo originally having been built as a warship or other not-towing vessel?
(Not an ordinary realspace tug, by any means, no a hyperspace tug. Who can say what crew such a ship does or does not need?)
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retrogarde
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 22, 2017 8:19 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Vader wrote:

Btw, Jo did you have a source for the Nostromo originally having been built as a warship or other not-towing vessel?
(Not an ordinary realspace tug, by any means, no a hyperspace tug. Who can say what crew such a ship does or does not need?)


I have heard this a few times too, but have yet to see a source attributed. Very strangely I did stumble across a reference to the Sulaco having been a retrofit cargo vessel (according to Syd Mead), which strikes me as very odd. I see the Nostromo as very civilian and rhe Sulaco as very military so I can't image their roles reversed.
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Cold Canuck
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 22, 2017 10:51 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I must admit, I tend to associate the words "interstellar cruiser" to combat ships, and less to that of cruise lines.
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Vader
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 22, 2017 7:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Retrograde if you flip back a couple of pages, to page 14, there is a lengthy discussion regarding how Ron Cobb in the backstory to the ship Leviathan, one of the many concepts that preceded the Nostromo, described that ship as a cargo ship modified from some other kind of transport, and how in later fandom, the idea of the Leviathan being a "proto-Nostromo" took hold and her backstory (completely erroneously, as she conceptually as well as design-wise is a fundamentally different ship) got transposed to the Nostromo, e.g. prompting many to feel compelled to try to force-fit features mentioned in that backstory such as the "thrust tunnels" into the Nostromo's design.

An earlier version of that same discussion can be found somewhere in the single-digit pages.

Therefore, when people at this late time try to hold on the idea of the Nostromo not being 100% a towing vessel (in spite of the evidence of the captions at the film's beginning) or actually being converted from something else, I immediately get suspicious that it's really the Leviathan's ghost speaking.


I hope that at some point very soon, we can stop rehashing the same discussions and argumentations and drop the idea of the Leviathan in any way being relevant to the Nostromo along with the idea that the set layouts necessarily bear anything more than a passing resemblance to what her deck layout "actually" needs to look like utterly, completely, totally, once and for all.
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FenGiddel
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 22, 2017 7:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

<bump>

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Cold Canuck
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 23, 2017 12:16 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Vader wrote:

I hope that at some point very soon, we can stop rehashing the same discussions and argumentations and drop the idea of the Leviathan in any way being relevant to the Nostromo along with the idea that the set layouts necessarily bear anything more than a passing resemblance to what her deck layout "actually" needs to look like utterly, completely, totally, once and for all.


Sorry, half the fun of sci-fi is letting the imagination roam free, unhindered by those who don't have imagination or the desire to exercise the brain.
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Vader
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 23, 2017 1:39 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Cold Canuck wrote:
Sorry, half the fun of sci-fi is letting the imagination roam free, unhindered by those who don't have imagination or the desire to exercise the brain.


No, I'm sorry but don't you see? That is precisely my point!

(Or is it I who don't see...? It's 7 AM; I just woke up, with just a bit of jet-lag left... Confused )

But what I mean is, the various rough sketches of ship concepts, discarded, reimagined, eventually resulting in the Nostromo we know, all form a rigid framework of references that doesn't let our collective imaginations roam free, but rather boxes them in.

If we let the Snark, and the Leviathan, and other concept work by Cobb, and Foss, and everybody all together define the parameters of the Nostromo for us, we find ourselves forcibly shoehorning a lot of disparate concepts into the same ship she has to also be a freighter ... probably more a freighter than a tug, actually ... and she has to be a rebuilt transport, and there must be thrust tunnels somewhere, because Cobb says there are, and so on resulting in ... well, not a believable ship, but rather something probably best described as a shepherd's pie with strawberries, whipped cream, and an anchovy on top.

What I'd like for us to do is set our imaginations free and start thinking outside of that box, drop the crutches does this lot here need crutches to our imaginations? Really? and let ourselves be constrained by two things only: (a) what we know is canonical to the final version of the Nostromo only, and (b) real-world considerations, based on the world as we know it, but transposed to what we can imagine them to be in the context of the ALIEN universe.

Why (b)? Because clearly Scott et. al. wanted that world to nave a nitty-gritty realistic, sand-in-the-spacesuit real-world based, "lo-fi" believable feel to it, and worked very hard to convey precisely that on-screen.


And exactly the same with the deck plans. Slavishly following the set plans hems us in; it doesn't allow us to imagine the interior layout of the ship such as it might be, if we only take the on-screen evidence into account.

All of us know very well that set plans are ruled by production realities, not by any desire to represent a real, complete ship's interior. Why then allow production realities determine e.g. the exact location of the infirmary in relation to the bridge?
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joberg
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 23, 2017 4:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I understand everyone's concerns here (Tug, no tug, military ship transformed into tug...etc)

I think that for the sake of what we want to achieve, we have to come up with a clear decision. Let's make Nostromo as it's portrayed in the movie...and nothing more/less.

I also think that it would be a good idea to create another thread altogether to explore/imagine another possible type of Nostromo and its interior or possible interiors, as to not muddle the discussion at hand.

I hope that'll satisfy all of the parties involved since both can elicit great things while on a different tangent.
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 23, 2017 8:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote



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Space Jockey
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 23, 2017 10:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

- SPECIAL ORDER 485 -

Emergency Overide
Entry deleted
Auth. 'SJ' #28503A

END



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Cold Canuck
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 24, 2017 12:11 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

*cough*
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 24, 2017 4:40 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

- SPECIAL ORDER 485 -

Emergency Overide
Entry deleted
Auth. 'SJ' #28503A

END



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PostPosted: Fri Mar 24, 2017 5:11 am    Post subject: Reply with quote



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