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Eagle
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 21, 2007 2:03 pm    Post subject: Which all-metal blaster? Reply with quote

 
Right. Firstly, I have a hunch this may cause some controversy - apologies if it does. It may also have been discussed recently but I haven't found it yet.

Which all-metal replica BR Blaster do you consider the best - forthcoming or otherwise?

The SidKit or The Coyle?

Simple. Smile

I need to make a decision...
 
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Eagle
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 22, 2007 6:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hmm. Looks like I might have touched a raw nerve! Laughing
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andy
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 22, 2007 10:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I personally have not seen a the "all metal" Coyle. Very few have. If somebody wanted to loan me one to write a review, I would be willing to, no problem. Wink
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amish
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 23, 2007 8:51 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hmmmm, I do not own any of the metal ones, and really can only say that I have seen many builds of the Sidkit and it looks fantastic. Otherwise, I have heard similar things about the Coyle metal version, but have never really seen one.

I guess, I am the same boat as Andy on this one.

I should also mention that Sidkit is making a new WorldCon version, so it might be worth holding out.
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andy
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 23, 2007 11:39 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I say buy one of each Very Happy...down the road I might.
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moogybaby
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 23, 2007 9:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I've got two of the Coyle resin blasters, three Rick Ross Doppelgangers, a copy of the stunt and a few other replicas, in addition to an all-metal Coyle.

As a completist, in addition to a Hartford, I also intend to get a Sidkit.

I'd say for strict dollar value, a Sidkit (although I've never handled one persoonally) would be the way to go.

From what I've gathered, there's a softness to the metal in the Sidkit version that makes build-ups tricky and the model less sturdy. An owner of one of those might want to comment more on that.

As I've said, I've never handled one.

But, for a completely finished, nickel-plated (No polishing required) , sound and light enabled replica, the Coyle is the most impressive, heavy duty offering available right now.

And, I may have Rich add the World-Con mods to mine to better accurize it.

I'd love to hear other's thoughts on this.
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racprops
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 24, 2007 9:26 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I have my own horn to blow but I feel I can answer this:

I have worked to the extreme to make these as accurate as I can, I am even getting photo-etched covers made for the little LED switch made.

Sidkits current offering is based off one of my older models a version three, the grips and grip frame and both side covers were, well WRONG!!

He is missing lots of correct detail including the serial number and importing stamps on the front near the injection port. Missing detail on the ammo housing as well.

I have fixed all of that in the new model.

Read this article and note I have made a couple of improvements after this:

http://www.racprops.com/AAANew%20Article/blade_runner.htm

PS Pictures of the latest Plastic model at the end.

The Metal model is the same. Plastic ammo housing and clip and grips. As were the real gun.

Rich
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 24, 2007 9:27 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I knew it wouldn't be too long before Rich chimed in here claiming that every BR Blaster out there is a rip-off of one of his models...
I believe the question at hand was for the Sid-Kits owners out there...

I own a Sid-Kits, a Rick Ross Snubby and (sadly) a Coyle C,S&T.

My favorite is the Sid-Kits due to the all-metal construction...though it truly is too heavy when completed, I had to make some special mods to it to lighten it up.
You are correct about the softness of the metal as well...I would liken it to Pewter. If you are not careful when finishing it out you could really damage it...though I have found that "liquid Aluminum" works well for filling minor knicks and gaps.

You can check out my more detailed reviews in the "Buyer Feedback" section here.
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racprops
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 24, 2007 9:31 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well both of us are using pewter, it is the only cast-able metal we can get.

But it comes very close to real weigh, my all metal Jayne's gun was just under 5 pounds and the real gun is reported to weigh 4.5 pounds.


Rich
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racprops
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 24, 2007 9:49 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

It more or less comes down to cost: Sidkits is cheaper to start with, but labor intense.

Sidkits kit is majorly inaccurate. So how important is accurately to you.

It depends if you have the tools and time to build it, and the skill.

Last I looked he was asking around $900.00 for his completely built model.

Mine will cost $850.00 and the battery is included along with a Number plaque and display stand.

Mine will be put together with screws not glues and thus be serviceable.

Mine comes with a Plastic ammo housing and ammo clip as they are plastic in the real prop and on real Styer Rifles. This will lower weigh in the front. And is thus more accurate.

Mine come with 5 dummy 44 rounds.

And yes the metal front trigger is still a dummy and because of recreating it accurately, it can cause damage if pulled.

My older version I could cheat and when it was pulled it could turn freely, but to be accurate I had to drop that.

Rich
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racprops
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 24, 2007 10:16 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

“I knew it wouldn't be too long before Rich chimed in here claiming that every BR Blaster out there is a rip-off of one of his models...
I believe the question at hand was for the Sid-Kits owners out there...”

First he asked which was best:

“Which all-metal replica BR Blaster do you consider the best - forthcoming or otherwise?
The SidKit or The Coyle?”

You got a chance to offer your view.

I think I am allow to offer my view.

I said nicely his model was based off one of mine, as was the Jupiter Two and Hartford and because MiM based their model off the Harford it as well.

There are “Tells” and mistakes I made that show up copied in all of these models.

Mistakes that a fresh model build would have either not been made or would have been made differently from my mistakes.

There is always going to be some who want a Yago and not a Rolls Royce, as there will always be those that can only afford a Yago.
There will always be those that even will even clam the Yago is better than the RR.

I just feel this question deserved a honest answer, so if he wants the Sidkits he gets it knowing the differences.

Rich
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racprops
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 24, 2007 10:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mistakes:

They can hang around and haunt you.

I once had a real wood Follower from Logan’s Run movie.

It’s front/top lens was loose, so I stuck it back on with two sided foam tape.

Later I took some pictures of it.

Even later I posted these pictures on my web site.

Well someone did a run of all metal Followers, very well done, so well done he based them on the pictures I had posted.

So well done he even machined the gap made by the foam tape to hold the lens.

On the real prop there was no gap.

I still feel bad I caused that mistake to happen.

I am sure every modeler can say, it is the mistake and flaws that we know oh so well of our work.

Rich
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andy
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 24, 2007 10:56 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

All true Rich except his Built-ups were being sold for under $800 ( I think he stopped because of customs issues mostly). You are also not selling a kit version of the metal for under $400. I think that for many people it is Cost more than Accuracy unfortunately.

I hope your new version you will not only make the most accurate version with just details but over all appearance too. I also hope that you could make an affordable kit version for those of us who are unable to spend allmost a grand (more than a real gun) on a prop replica.

Your guns will always have an air of authority with them, but prop collecting has gone different routes since those days. People want something they can play with as well as display. MR has made most of their money of the Force FX sabers over the short run display props.

I am in no way saying your guns are not worth what you are charging, but we(or at least I) can just not afford them. As a result second option becomes Siderio.

The first guy to make a simple metal gun without all the 'internal' details for under $200 may make a bundle. The Offworld would have sold better if they had kept a few more pieces metal and not painted it with that awful paint job. People still seem to like the simple stunt style castings as well. Part of the charm of the Rick Ross guns is their simplicity. Siderio isn't your only competition. Just the only one making all metal kits.

I like the direction you have been going with this new gun Rich. I hope you can keep it up. I just know I can not afford one, I do think Eagle can though, so I hope I didn't dissuade him too much. If this gun you are making now is as good as it can be you will be able to charge just about anything you want for it.

I beg you please, make your grips less cloudy. They tend to ruin the appearance of your otherwise beautiful guns. I also would like to see what a gun with a simple paint job (or just black resin/plastic) and Blued metal would look like without the weathering. I have yet to see one of those.

Good luck and God Speed, I can't wait to see what you end up with.

Andy
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racprops
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 24, 2007 11:23 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well Sid has been dropping his prices, so it was $900.00 to start with.

There are too many problems with doing a kit.

I will give Sid his due, he does very nice castings, how: even my guys and I can not even figure.

Ours always need cleanup and deburring and flash removal.

By the time I have cleaned a model up to the point of painting it (or shipping it as a kit) I have spent a lot of hours doing so, so I might as well paint it and assemble it and get paid for all the labor.

Either he is VERY good at mold making, very good as pouring, and or does all the clean up, which he may have some very cheap helpers to do that…I can not really match that.

And I find that kits are the first to be ripped off, after all, it is right there, simply throw rubber over the parts and cast.

And the idea of a solid dummy model, well first it will cost a lot here, that much metal will not be cheap.

And that much metal in one mold will distort the molds due to its weight during casting.

And the final model will weight a TON.

Aluminum would be the only way and they are not very clean castings…
I offered dummy Plastic versions of the gun as kits and as build up, they sold very poorly.

Perhaps it was too early, Cosplay was not much back then.

These were solid, with hollow ammo housings so you could have working LEDs and working spring back trigger and amber grips. AND sold for around $95.00 as kits and $195.00 built and painted.

As stunt CosPlay models these would be very good.

But again they sold very poorly.

There are two markets, the lowest and the highest.

Making a living at the lowest is near impossible so I think I will stick to the highest and finest.

My new grips are very clear and color dead on.

Rich
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bbabich
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 24, 2007 4:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Can we change this record? This one is either broken or I have heard it too many times.

Seriously though, the reason why Sids castings are so good as that his methods are better. To give you another example, when I open a Rick Ross kit, it is the cleanest piece of art I have ever seen in my life, right up there with a Morganthirteen (These guys are excellent at their craft and casting); I have seen your pieces in kit form (Lost in Space gun and BR blaster 4.8 kits you were trying to sell) and they do require a lot of cleanup on your part. I would suggest revisiting your casting methods and critically look at what is lacking because a person doing this for as long as you have been with todays materials should not have all of these 'labor' issues. Invest in your methods and materials and you will save time and money in the long run.

-Bryan
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racprops
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 24, 2007 4:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Facts are facts damning them will not change them.

Hey I even paid Sid a compliment.

I am not alone in all of this, even my metal cast company is a little surprised with his finishes and they suggested he takes a little longer in mold making and in finishing the pieces up before shipping. And that it would cost more if I want my parts delivered in a like conduction.

It is not cost worthy for me to work harder and pay more on tooling and molds just so I can sell a cheaper product, and make less money, so I am leaving the low levels to people like Sid.

My tooling and molds were never meant for kits, and you are right they were cruder than some, but I also have seen kits that were Swiss cheese, and some that never stop leaking oil and with parting lines 1/4 inch apart.

And I tried to price them cheap and reasonable.

So I will do the clean up work and farther finish the models out and paint and assemble them and not bother with kits.

Quality still matters in some places and there are still customers for the finer things.

There is room for all.

When there is not room, well it was fun.

Rich
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bbabich
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 24, 2007 6:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

1st, I could barely follow with whatever thought process you were trying to convey in your post.

2nd No matter how often you repeat the same old swan song does not make you right.

3rd You completely missed my point because you focused on the 'kit' topic, I was speaking of methods as they pertain to your process as opposed to others.

The reason why you have to put so much labor into your product is because your product has not evolved as methods and materials have evolved. You still appear to do things as you did in the 80's or early 90's during your brief stint 'in the biz.' Since then, the materials have gotten better, the means to make the masters have gotten better, access to decent reference (overall) has gotten better, the final product material has gotten better, the paint job is better, the details are sharper, and the consumer demand for more perfect product than a product with character has changed. What worked well when you were the only gig in town is no longer working because there are hobbists out there producing pieces equal or better than your best piece.

I am not saying your work is crap. I have expressed accuracy issues with you before, but what I am pointing out is you are complaining about your own unwillingness to change YOUR "crude" molds (your words not mine), which are causing YOU headaches on labor. It is as if there are two Coyle's fighting one another.

As for Sids metal, it is pretty clean and if your metal guys are sitting there scratching their heads as to how it is possible for Sid to get a decent end result, then maybe you need some new business partners.

As always, just some straight shooting.

-Bryan
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racprops
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 24, 2007 8:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

OK a civil talk.

I know his early plastic model was a total copy of my model, but now he has replace some parts and it is not a complete copy.

One of the most glaring mistakes on my early runs was a gap between the grip and the side cover, next is the short grips. Now when some makes a model that has these flaws, where did they get them??

They are coping my model BECAUSE if they had copied from a stunt casting they would not have the gap as it was not there on the original gun.

I got some of Sid’s early castings (From Sid ) and compared his so called original cocking lever to mine, care to see how they match?? Even to the hand stamped importing stamps?? To the glue I used making it??

Go to http://www.racprops.com/Sidkits/

God do I feel like Galileo facing the church, “We go around the sun….the planets go around the sun, not around the earth.”


Now as to better molds.
Tell me how???

The rubber will get under a super glued part, will find the smallest hole and get in.

The plastic will do the same, some flash is so thin it almost can be blown off with your breath, it can be thinner than paper, other needs clean up.

I am working with a casting shop with a crew who have been working in metal their whole lives and they say, he does good castings and looks like he cleans they up before shipping.

So he can afford to do the clean up, more power to him.

Again I can find no way to get tighter molds with out a lot more work.

All casting I have ever seen have some molding flaws, and if you going for a great finish you have to deal with them. Or sell them as kits and let the buyer fix them...

Most of the labor is not cleaning off the flash, pour points etc, they are cut off with a power tool or power sander, it is cleaning up the surface for the paint job and the drilling and tapping and fitting the parts and then the painting and repainting and then assembly, that is where the work goes.

Has any one clocked how many hours you spend cleaning, fitting , gluing painting a Sidkit model??

Now consider, what is you hourly pay at work?
How much would you had to pay your self to make that model??

I am happy with what I got. It works for me.

I just can not make kits, and why bother, he is doing them, and your so happy with them your willing to turn your back on the facts and buy them, so what is the problem here??

The question was what is the difference between the two metal kits, and until Sid gets one of mine new models, a lot.

Rich
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hirohawa
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 24, 2007 8:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The casting quality of my Coyle 4.6 is Excellent. Rich even manages to get the serial number on the front of the steyr mag housing - As far as I know his is the only kit that has this detail.

To say his work is not first rate is completely untrue and reaks of an agenda against Rich.
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 24, 2007 10:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Does anyone know the definition of insanity? It goes something like this:

Repeating the same flawed behaviour while expecting different results.

Or better yet...My Mother always told me this as a child and I didn't understand it until after I made my first BR Blaster purchase:

"You cannot ever hope to reason with an Un-reasonable mind."

So here I go anyway against my Mother's own advice...

What I know about mold making is pretty straight-forward...
The mold and positive you get out of it is only ever as good as the maker of it.
If you are having your molds made for you but not getting satisfactory positives you should find a better mold maker or learn to do it yourself...if you do it yourself you at least have no-one else to blame...which may or may not be a positive thing from your perspective.

Also, from what I know about those who make molds for Jewelry...
Jewelers tend to try to re-coop losses by selling copies they have made from originals. I have had to personally request Jewelers NOT to do this with my stuff only to have them double their asking fee. Could be your mold makers are making some extra dough on the sligh? If they are you may have some legal options.
If you don't have the Money for court or Lawyer Fee's then you need to decide just how crazy you want to appear by constantly accousing other's of stealing your work. Or perhaps you could try a Zen Approach and realize that you are being paid a great compliment by those who imitate it.

Have you tried "Dragon Skin" Silicone from Smooth-on for making your metal pour-up molds?
I used it to make my all-metal Snubbie off of Rick Ross's Kit (with not only his permission but his blessing) and found it wonderfully easy to work with. I did many pour-ups to figure out how much pressure to apply to the sides of the molds and was eventually rewarded with a metal positive that was virtually free of seems or "Flash".
As I discussed this with Rick I was quick to dedeuce that after all the hard work to get one good metal positive, there was no way in HELL that I would ever consider trying to mass produce them to sell to others...my satisfaction comes from doing it right for ME.

I'll leave you with a reputed famous quote from Doc Holiday upon presenting a winning hand to his apponent for the twelfth time in a row...
"Perhaps Poker just isn't your game...I know! Let's have a spelling contest!"
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