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bwade wanna
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Joined: 03 Mar 2010
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 25, 2018 4:07 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Guess what this is going to be... Very Happy



I researched this prop to death and realized that so far everybody has gotten the plate holder size and format wrong (including the replica on eBay that sold for over $700). This is what it needs to be:



Will post progress pics when I have time - the slide cover will need to be modified (aluminum plate instead of the plastic) and I need to add the aluminum cross bar and sheet holder tabs. Paint and graphics will come last. Wish me luck!
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Buch
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 25, 2018 5:45 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

"... realized that so far everybody has gotten the plate holder size and format wrong"

I think you need to elaborate a little bit here Wink
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eethan
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 25, 2018 6:21 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

yeah especially since seeing the size of your hand compared to your plate, the plate seeing big, the screws in the corners too big and the circle on the centre of the top frame being absent, it not certain that this version is the good one no?

I mean, it's looking nice, but you seem so certain that everybody else got it wrong and you got it right that this rises some questions.
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Replicant 13
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Joined: 18 Jul 2011
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 25, 2018 11:11 am    Post subject: STICKING MY NOSE IN Reply with quote

3D ALTERNATIVE?

Just investigating this thread after an absence. Smile

I could be in error, so excuse the injection if this is already covered elsewhere. . .

While many things being hunted here are acquired items, if difficult to find, some might well be derived from, or inspired by what you are finding. In watching Savage's visits to the actual prop shop on YouTube, most of the prop builds were built using high-end 3D-printed parts.
So might the grid be only "inspired by" this piece which Bwade Wanna is holding?



As it appears to be a plastic material (or could be), it might be one of the lesser complex things to print, at any size needed. The bigger challenge is that most of the current 3D output I see offered online (K's Blaster, for one) is substandard, requiring hours of cleanup.

This, however, is a simple geometric grid and any alterations, a rather simple edit.

- R13
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eethan
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 25, 2018 11:52 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

but, the grid is not seen in the movie right? only the frame is important
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Buch
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 25, 2018 1:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The grid on the K blaster looks a lot different. It's actually a quite intricate design Wink
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bwade wanna
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 25, 2018 2:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I know everybody loves to be right on the prop forums, and consensus can be hard to break. As I posted on the RPF, I just applied basic scaling techniques to the screen shots and concluded that the correct format is 18x24 cm. K’s hand *IS* big - he’s 6’0” - and the Kohinoor mechanical pencil helped establish the size of the plate holder. Also, the shape of the dark slide’s grip corresponds to only a small handful of plate holders.

The one I purchased is NOT the same model as the one seen on screen, but one made for a post-war Soviet FKD camera that’s a copy of a 1920’s German field camera (hense the plastic dark slide, which I know is not seen on screen). Some have claimed the camera the plate holder comes from is an ICA, but I see no evidence of that - the triangular steel plates and cross bar are the wrong shape and/or size. The original is likely made by ICA, ZEISS, or a lesser-known German brand, but I have yet to find the right model. So far nobody else has, or at least hasn’t posted about it, because they’re still looking themselves. I seriously doubt a found plate holder was modified, since all the others seen in the SDCC display were not. You can see the corner of the screen-used plate laying flat behind the Linhof plate holder. It’s a shame nobody took better photos of it... Sad
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Buch
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 25, 2018 3:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

bwade wanna wrote:
I know everybody loves to be right on the prop forums, and consensus can be hard to break.


That's why I asked. It's the research and evidence that's interesting Wink
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eethan
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 25, 2018 3:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

here is a quick photoshop, It's just my opinion but your hand seems really really small compared to the screencap of the movie. Rian gosling is not a giant, his hands must be quite average. I'm really not sure about your certitude for the size of the plate.

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bwade wanna
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 25, 2018 3:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

You have to remember that the closer the camera is to the subject, the more distorted the perspective... Here's another shot I took from the approximate angle and perspective - no post-manipulation. K's hand doesn't look so big anymore, or mine so small, does it? Smile Note the red lines I added to show the near identical proportions along the inside and outside edges of the holder frame - if anything, the screen-used plate holder looks a bit larger:



Last edited by bwade wanna on Sun Feb 25, 2018 3:54 pm; edited 2 times in total
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bwade wanna
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 25, 2018 3:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

When I get my pencil, I'll take another shot to confirm or retract my conclusions. I'm not afraid to admit I'm wrong. Smile
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eethan
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 25, 2018 4:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

thanks for the new picture, it does help. I'm still not totally convinced but it looks indeed different on that angle. maybe yes when you receive the pen, you can try to really mimic the photo. I would be curious to see your frame with the second hand on top of it with the pen.
cheers
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bwade wanna
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 25, 2018 5:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Here's another perspective and proportions experiment. We have to remember that what our eyes see is NOT what the camera sees. Lens optics, distance to subject, zoom, depth of field, aperture size, etc. all affect the final perspective, and it's usually different than what the naked eye sees. I am keeping this in perspective (pun intended) until we get a positive ID on the screen-used plate holder. For now, I'll be happy converting my 18x24 format FKD. Smile



BTW - is that dark slide glossy, or what? Can't tell if it's polished aluminum, paint, or an overlay. Guesses welcome! Smile

Here's my FKD holder with a mocked-up cross bar, compared to the screen-used prop in the Pelican case:



Notice how the FKD holder has a stamped "1" exactly where the screen-used prop has a circled "3" on it. This tells me those damn Rooskies went the extra mile in copying the original German plate holder...

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bwade wanna
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 25, 2018 11:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Buzby on the RPF contributed information which appears to be a breakthrough - he spotted a concluded auction for a pair of unbranded plate holders in 13x18 and 9x13 cm film format. The 13x18 cm format plate holder is a DEAD RINGER for the screen-used prop, with the exception of the dark slide grip. The 9x13 plate holder grip, however, is an exact match, albeit in the wrong scale. Since these are unbranded, they will be a bitch to find in any quantities. For now, at least we have a 100% match, and only have to verify the scale and find the correct grip for that format. The 18x24 format FKD holder I bought is still a contender for scale, pending Photoshop confirmation - I could use your help on this, eethan: please see the dimensions of the hardened case (positively IDed by Birdei) below for scaling reference:











I'm completely open to being wrong, and will embrace the 13x18 format if it's proven beyond a reasonable doubt to be correct.
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Buch
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 26, 2018 3:00 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Now, this is interesting! Thanks for posting Very Happy

Was the one by Buzby found recently?
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eethan
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 26, 2018 3:16 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

oh yeah, that plate is really interesting! for the correct/incorrect handle, it could just be that the aluminum frame around that handle is removed no? it seems like the shape is still exactly similar.
I'll see tonight what I can photoshop, not sure how I can help here but yeah, that's some new interesting material for sure.
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bwade wanna
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 26, 2018 5:54 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

eethan - could you take the plate holder prop from the 5.12 hardened case, make it parallel to the screen without changing its scale, and stand two of them side by side without the grips at the rear of the case's foam insert? I'd like to confirm the math on the lengths...

Regarding the white grip borders, here's a set Franatix on the RPF just received - they're the 6x9 format, I believe - at least half the size of the screen-used prop. The screen used holder has plastic or wooden grips with a circular depression running through it for the fingers to catch on. These do not:



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eethan
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 26, 2018 1:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hey, I'm not sure this is what you wanted, but here is my photoshop, this confirms what you said, two plates would be 55cm wide I guess from my first test.



now, this is really precise, I didn't change the size of the plate, but since it's not sitting at the back of the case, if you do what I did again but not totally at the back, you get 47cm for 2:



don't know if that helps Confused
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bwade wanna
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 26, 2018 2:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

That’s awesome, eethan! Exactly what I was hoping for! So your analysis effectively rules out my 18x24 format FKD plate holders and confirms Buzby’s 13x18 format holders. Bummer for me, but I am a truth seeker, so this is great news! Smile Are you also on the RPF? If so, your analysis would be welcome on the BR 2049 props thread there - Birdie already reached the same conclusion, since he identified the correct case, but he didn’t show his work.
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Prime586



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PostPosted: Mon Feb 26, 2018 4:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

For anyone who's not a member there, here's my latest post on the plate holders from the RPF (I'm buzby over there)

A bit more digging has revealed the make. The plate holder is from a Goltz & Breutmann 'Mentor' Reflex camera, dating from the early 1900s to late 1920s. They were made in 6.5x9, 9x12, 10x15, and 13x18cm formats,
(though the 9x12s are far more common, relatively speaking). They also made compact folding (Klapp) versions.

One auctioneer listed the plate holders as being made of ebony and aluminium. Some plate holders do not have the aluminium corner reinforcement plates, so the design was changed over time (I'm betting they lost the corner plates later on as an economy measure, as G&B went bankrupt in 1929). There alos appear to be very early or late versions that were all wood, The versions with the aluminium parts seem to be mosrly seen with the Klapp versions, so they may have been 'lightweight' plate holders made for the slightly more portable folding models.

The company were operating at the same time and in the same city (Dresden) as ICA, so it's probably not a coincidence the plate holders look similar. However, the exterior dimensions and fit are unique to Mentor's cameras, so they are quite sought after by collectors as the cameras are practically useless without them. The company was taken over by one of the former workers during WWII, but the factory was flattened in the Dresden raid in 1945. After the war the company continued to make large format cameras (though with more standard Lindhof-style plate holders) under the Mentor name in the DDR, and eventually merged with Pentacon (the company that made Praktica cameras) in 1980.
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