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8th_Passenger
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 08, 2017 1:33 pm    Post subject: It's a test, designed to provoke an emotional response Reply with quote

Just as a note.

I hope this thread will compliment LearnByMaking’s thread ‘Functioning Voight-Kampff Machine’.

Before I posted this thread I wanted to check with LearnByMaking, as I didn’t want to tread on his toes. He said he was interested in what I had to post as it may help him with his build.

So with that said. Here we go!

Over the past few months since finishing my Flamethrower project I've been working on plans for a Voight Kampff machine. In the past I have struggled to draw a version which has proportions I am happy with. As a result I have ended up with many unfinished revisions of the same drawing in CAD.

Here's an old one.


I've come up with widths between 405mm to 460mm.


My main priority with this is to try and replicate the proportions and look of the original prop built by Mike Fink.

I have recently started afresh using paper and pencil. Once I'm happy with the dimensions I will draw them up in CAD.

My starting points are:-

i) To have 3" and 5" monitors in a 4:3 aspect ratio.

ii) To use the dimensions of Tom Southwell's graphics as a guide.

iii) To stick close to the 430mm width of joberg's machine which I believe is a good size.

iv) To have 15mm square buttons (again from joberg).

I started by drawing a basic plan and elevations using the photo references from this site. The total width was 460mm, the same as the largest of my past attempts. I've called this 'Version One'.

I need to lose 30mm out of the width if possible. If I can get it down to 440mm I will be happy.

To help me evaluate the size of Version One I decided to build a mock up of the double monitor.

I cut the shapes needed to make the monitor.


Then assembled them.





I sealed the MDF, primed it and gave it a coat of satin black spray.

I wanted to test out how a 'back-sprayed' vac form screen would look if I went for static screens.

Here's the result (The left screen has white paper behind).


Looking at this mock up I realized my screen size wasn’t quit 4:3 and looking too sharp in the corners. The front internal edges needs to mirror the curved corners of the CRT screens within.

When I redrew the monitors I ended up with a screen size of approximately 2 7/8” on the diagonal. To see how this looked I modeled a digital one.





This decreased the overall width of the double monitor by 4mm and made it slightly taller.

I then noticed on my main drawing I’d drawn the buttons at 17mm square! So I had to redraw that area. These two revisions brought the overall width of the unit down from 460mm to 440mm.

Version Two on the drawing board (reworked over my initial drawing).


At this stage I decided to build a digital mock up of the whole machine so far. By doing this I would hopefully be able to see how things were looking proportionally and where I might lose even more width. That last 10mm.

Having only sketched out certain details at this point it was an opportunity to develop the size of the bellows, front drawer thing! (anybody know what that is?), graph bars, 5” monitor and the space for the arm assembly.

Just as a note I've not rounded off all the edges in these digital renders.





During the modeling I found I needed to reduce the width of the housing the top graphic sits on by 8mm. This meant 8mm had to come off the overall size of the 5" monitor to compensate. I took 4mm off the screen surround leaving the 5" diagonal portion untouched.

This now put the overall width at just over 430mm.

I continued with Version Two and saved a few renders to show you the overall size and feel.







So time now to start Version Three.

There are various things I've spotted already that I've not got quite right (in my eyes).

The loss of 8mm from the height of the 5" monitor will cause me problems when redrawing my front elevation. Also the sizes of the graph bars available today don't seem to match up with the ones on the original machine! I'll try and illustrate what I mean in my next post. Also I have a few thoughts on the look of the bellows.

For the time being it's back to the drawing board.


Colin
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joberg
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 09, 2017 4:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Very exciting news Colin!!
Yes, very frustrating machine; if you look at the original screen and buttons, you'll see that 5 buttons fit into the width and 4 for the height.
That should give an approx. measurement of the big screen.
The box with the 2 small screens looks good also (buttons on top have each a "spout" in the middle of them, as to accommodate those flat "pipes" on top.

The vid on Stephen Dane is also very good for details: the main piece holding the bellows...one corner is actually rounded (I know, details, details).

The piece that's still a mystery is that famous half wheel coming out of the machine on the left Confused Never saw the graphics/designs on that one...

Keep going, it's going to be great!!
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veektohr
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 09, 2017 8:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Whoa! I LOVE these kind of soup-to-nuts builds. I'm really excited to see what you finish with... and how you get there!
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8th_Passenger
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 10, 2017 7:42 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks joberg for the comments and input.

I have rounded the corner on the plate that holds the bellows down. You just can't see it from the angles I've taken the screen shots.

I'm not quite sure what you mean by spout?

Also what do you mean by 'buttons' on the top of the double monitor. Do you see them as real buttons? I see them as rectangular blocks! Or is it just a term you are using to describe them. With the pipes I think there are flat ones and round ones.

As for the size of the main monitor. 5 x 4 buttons at 15mm square works out at 75mm x 60mm. Not quite a 4:3 ratio. This would give a diagonal of about 3.5". That seems too small to me. Did you use a 5" monitor in your last VK build?

Or am I missing something?

I can get approx 6.5 buttons into the width of the large monitor (on a reference photo) making it about 100mm. I'm just talking about the grey/green screen part here. So a 4:3 ratio would give a height of 75mm.

Or am I barking up the wrong tree with this CRT 4:3 aspect ratio.

I started on version three over the weekend and with the adjustments it's coming in at around 430mm wide. The height of the machine has also reduced and now the double monitor sticks up slightly higher than the main monitor assembly. Which looking at the reference seems acceptable.

Another factor which makes the machine hard to scale is the 12 segment graph bar above the main monitor. The commercially available ones these days appear to be about 58mm long (that I have found). But it needs to be about 78mm long to fill that space on my drawing. Which suggests they were bigger back in the early eighties! I think one could be scratch built with laser cut parts and single rectangular LED's mounted in the holes. Which may have been mentioned before.

Or have I've got the screen size way off!

Am I looking at version four already!

veekthor thanks for your comments. I'm interested in the outcome also.

It's not going to be plain sailing.


Colin
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Buch
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 10, 2017 8:10 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

This is one build I'm definitely going to follow! Great pics... keep them coming!
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joberg
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 10, 2017 6:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Colin, I called them buttons for no better word Wink

Here's a quick drawing I did for the spout (one in the middle of each button on top of the 2 small screen box)



You can see them clearly on the vid with S.Dane "A moment in Design".
I believe that the "bars" coming from those are of a flat design.
For the big screen, I forgot to mention that it takes a little more than 4 buttons (4 buttons and a half for the height and 5 and a half for the width...sorry about that, I was too excited about your project Laughing )!!

As for the overall screen, I believe that the machine is smaller that we might think...only time will tell, since it's impossible to get the real measurements of the original prop.
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Vader
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 11, 2017 9:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Regarding the part of the machine that forms the base of the bellows -- it seems to me that it is a bit raised, with sharp corners.

Here are a couple of screen caps from slightly different angles, with some graphics to highlight what I'm talking about. The first is from the Leon scene, the second from the Rachel scene:


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Buch
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 11, 2017 10:20 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

That's because of the larger screen on this edition of the machine... not on the original Fink design....
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 11, 2017 1:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I wonder... As far as I can see, there doesn't seem to be much in the structure that necessitates that a larger screen must also raise the bellows.

Looking at the discussion in the other thread, I'm beginning to suspect it actually might have more to do with creating space for the mechanism that actuates the bellows.
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Buch
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 11, 2017 1:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Vader wrote:
I wonder... As far as I can see, there doesn't seem to be much in the structure that necessitates that a larger screen must also raise the bellows.

Looking at the discussion in the other thread, I'm beginning to suspect it actually might have more to do with creating space for the mechanism that actuates the bellows.


Quite possible. Maybe the picture tube on the one they had on hand was longer? I'm not 100% sure (we need Joberg here) but I think this version was build in a hurry for the close up shots....
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8th_Passenger
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 11, 2017 2:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ah Vader, I see you have already come to the same conclusion about the block under the bellows.

Joberg, thanks for illustrating the 'spout'. Yes I can see that there is something there. I can't see anything really clearly though. Are we just looking at reflection? However it is more pleasing the pipes go into something rather than just a hole. I still think one pipe is flat (the straight ones) and the bent ones are round. But maybe that can be a personal preference. A minor detail.

Quote:
"As for the overall screen, I believe that the machine is smaller that we might think...only time will tell, since it's impossible to get the real measurements of the original prop."


Joberg you can't drop bombshells like that on me!

Though I do agree the machine could go smaller.

Everything would have to reduce in size!

Meaning the Tom Southwell graphics wouldn't be the size (he said) if I'm to keep the same overal proportions.

Is it possible the artwork was reduced when the logos were made?

Do I try a 4" main monitor? Not quite sure what that would make the screens in the double monitors. Though I have been here before so I can look at an older drawing.

The other size we have is the diameter of the shaver cutter which you could scale the head assembly off.

Another factor is the sizes of the servos. It seems like a standard servo is needed to push the arm out as demonstrated by learnbymaking. Those servo's are quite big meaning you can only go so small.

So I feel no closer to a final size.

I have decided to make a mock up of version three. I feel I need to see it in front of me to make a judgement.

What would an ideal width be? 400mm?

Colin
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 11, 2017 3:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

400mm Shocked Wow.... I need to go rethink my life now....
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 11, 2017 7:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Many questions in here...will try to answer to the best of my knowledge.

It's true that reverse engineering is needed at that point: to take the eye measurement since it's a found piece that hasn't changed in size since (22mm).
As soon as we have that, we can go backwards toward the arm, the pullies, the box, etc...

I think a 400mm prop should be the minimum allowed.
All of the 4 "flat pipes" coming from those buttons on top of the 2 screen box are flat.

The top that we see in one of Bwood's pic (Mike Fink painting/re-touching the eye) shows a one piece top...it's very special also and I will try to post a drawing tomorrow (today is too late Crying or Very sad ) but it's quite the discovery!!!

Vader, the pic you've showed is the U.K. V.K. not the original M. Fink!
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 11, 2017 11:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Wow!!! Amazing work so far. Can't wait to see more.
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 12, 2017 1:26 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks LearnByMaking. It's early days.

You mean this picture joberg?

I've taken this post from the Voight Kampff references thread.


nickdaring wrote:
Here's a blow up of that Bwood photo that shows the lightbar fairly nicely.





And it's cool to see a spare VK top in the background-


Colin
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 12, 2017 6:59 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yes Colin, that's the one...
It seems that the top was made in one piece, albeit a strange one.
You have cut-out for the front (big screen), cut-out for the bellows, one for the trench and, finally, one for the 2 screen box.

The whole top fits over the side of the machine and acts as a lid. I've counted only 3 screws holding it down: 1 on the left hand side (that's the longest side on that top), 1 on the right hand side (near the bellows and the shortest side) and 1 on top, between the bar holding the bellows and the trench. The angled left hand side at the front is also, to a certain extend a cut-out. that side of the machine is also cut on an angle (you know, the one near that half wheel, bottom left.

On the left hand side, you can also see a piece of plastic starting from the top of the side and coming down that same side. It acts as a guide to put that top in place.

For the front cut-out (big screen) the top is cut around the 3 sides of the screen housing and the top label sitting on it (label that Tom Southwell gave us pics from and that I reproduced with the proper fonts).

What is funny about those pics, is that there's obviously 2 tops (replacement top?) It cannot be another machine; they didn't have time for that!

As for the U.K. V.K the bellows were raised at the back for the simple reason (and that's my theory) that the new big screen was too high to show the bellows moving behind it like the first machine. For the sake of continuity, they decided to get the same kind of look from the scene already shot in L.A.

Now since Mike Fink was short on info about the prop, I've noticed that on that recent release of pics, from the model making crew working on BR, one is clearly showing Mike Fink and Mark Stetson in front of an unfinished V.K. machine...maybe Mark Stetson knows more about the prop?
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 12, 2017 3:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

joberg we are on the same page.

I have a sketch of the top I did some time ago. I'll post it at the weekend when I have more time.

All the stuff you mentioned about how the top locates is good. I have a few questions about that. I'll try do some illustrations over the weekend to go with the questions.

The spare top could just be a test fit.

I started the mock up. I'll post some pictures when there is something to show. Not sure how far I'll take it.

I will also try a new drawing with a 4" monitor. This makes the screen 90mm wide rather than 100. So 10% smaller! Scaled proportionally that would make the machine 387mm wide!

Colin
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 12, 2017 6:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Here's the top from...the top view. So it's the prop facing the viewer normally.



Not a lot of "top side" on the right hand side of the machine, but enough side material coming from the "bottom frame"



Here's the left hand side: the piece affixed to the side is where the top abut...and you see the screw on the side.



Top near the trench and the bar attachment for the bellows...and the screw on top.

So, since the top is completely cut-out for the bellows, there's maybe 10cm from the edge of the face to the cut-out (hence the screw).

I think that's it. Colin, if you have factored in the size of the big screen, did you try (looking at the pics) to fit one small screen into it and see what's you're left with?[/img]
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 13, 2017 1:22 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Incredible. Good stuff all around.
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 14, 2017 11:55 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Here's the 3D sketch of the top vac-form.


Today I've rescaled the front elevation three times.

The drawing at the top came in at 360mm.

It has a 3.7" diagonal screen based on the size of a Sony color TV available at the time.

Because of the screen size I had to reduced the three square buttons to 12mm x 12mm.

360mm too small I think.

The second unit down has the 90mm x 70mm screen which works out at a 4.5" diagonal screen. Again I utilized 12mm square buttons. This unit came in at 400mm.

The third unit down has a 4.5" diagonal but I kept the square buttons at 15mm this time. This unit came in at 415mm. To keep the 15mm square buttons I had to add more material to the overall monitor.

With the latter two units the size of the double monitors didn't decrease much from my versions 2 & 3. I guess that's something positive.

I have managed to draw the graph bars in all the units at the size they are availible today.



On the third unit the top Tom Southwell graphic stays at about 95mm long. Though its not quite like the dimensions I scaled from the photo here. Which work better on my 430mm unit.



Here's how far I have got with the 430mm mock up. Definitely good to see it in three dimensions. Looks totally different and different again in these photos!


Looking at mini TV from the early eighties doesn't help that much as non seem to match exactly. Like I said sony did a color flat screen at 3.7" on the diagonal and they also did a 5". Nothing in-between as far as I can tell.

I need to see how these changes in size affect the arm assembly and overall plan.

Colin
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