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THE 'UNKNOWNS' OF BLADE RUNNER
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Replicant 13
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PostPosted: Sun Nov 19, 2017 1:48 pm    Post subject: THE 'UNKNOWNS' OF BLADE RUNNER Reply with quote

SEPARATING FACT FROM THE FICTION OF FICTION

Aside from the much-debated "DECKARD QUESTION" (best left for another thread), after 35 years and two films, there remain many points, names and "things" that still are relatively unknown - and may stay as such.

But as with some whose answers have recently surfaced, I am hopeful that the answers are yet out there to be discovered. I think someone knows and is not telling!

I have attempted to connect with known participants like Sammon and Southwell (the latter having revealed a wealth of graphics and information from which we all have benefitted). And I have spent a significant amount time investigating, online and elsewhere, in the last couple of decades in a variety of areas related to Blade Runner, from props to locations, characters and corporations.

As a few here may know, in creating a piece recently, questions arose. In particular, I was confronted (again) by the those focusing on a corporation name, as well as its correct spelling: SHIMATA(?)-DOMINGUEZ. So in spite of my efforts to reason it out, it remains unresolved - to some extent.

OPINION vs. CONFIRMATION
These unknowns continue to generate a lot of speculation, guesses and opinions. But like most here, I still want definitive answers! Hence the focus of this new thread. Probably covered on PS to some extent in the past, but hopefully, this thread will generate or revive some reasonable discussion . . .

Have A Better One! - Replicant 13
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PostPosted: Sun Nov 19, 2017 2:42 pm    Post subject: THE SHIMATA QUESTION Reply with quote

"Schlemiel-Schlimazel-Shimata(-Domingues) Incorporated"*

To start a discussion, the exact name and spelling of a corporation mentioned on the "outskirts" of the Blade Runner Universe, the corporation name 'SHIMATA-DOMINGUEZ' has been given many forms after Blade Runner entered the fanscape of 1982.

It originated in the blimp voiceover in earlier scripts with the names flipped, as "DOMINGUEZ-SHIMATA" and was used (as the Off-World colonial bank) by the original Official Blade Runner fan club, on a certificate included in the member package -



At some point the name sequence changed to 'SHIMATA-DOMINGUEZ' (perhaps because it sounded better, as has been suggested elsewhere on this forum).

The accuracy of the "SHIMATA" name has been debated ever since. Some refer to written examples (various scripts or comments), others to what they personally discerned from audio tracks. To my current knowledge, the fan club certificate remains the first-use and the only "verifiable" spelling, in spite of the later sequence change.

Many unofficial products have followed over the years, from fans and opportunists just looking to make a buck. So I must assume these remain opinions and guesses, at best. The fact that labels, cards and other collectibles have chosen a variety of spellings does not prove authenticity. And some have just borrowed from others, assuming they "got it right", but some continue to produce art based on that initial spelling -



(Perhaps others here can shed some further light on this one question.)

- - -

As with other props. like Deckard's ID number, certain aspects of these props can be reasoned-out to some logical extent (beyond a mere guess), based on various verifiable pieces (like Southwell's early comps or known related props). In the meantime, some assumptions remain the only "solution" until the real answer is revealed.

HAB1! - R13


* Borrowing a lyric from an old sitcom - "Laverne & Shirley"
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PostPosted: Sun Nov 19, 2017 2:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm with you on that one Dave, but, speaking for myself and having also contacted various Pros that had worked on the first movie (didn't have the chance to talk to the new BR 2049 Pros...yet Wink ), I think that I can come up with 3 possibilities for you (I'm sure you know them as well as me).

Let's recap what could happen to a Pro having worked on BR 2019:

1: Loved it so much that said Pro doesn't mind giving/sharing all that he knows/experienced during principal photography and after.

2: Was just a movie/gig and let's move on. Pro will, from time to time answer some questions, but it's spotty at best.

3: Bad experience during the whole process and will not talk to fans about anything related to BR in general.

There you have it Wink
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PostPosted: Sun Nov 19, 2017 2:59 pm    Post subject: NO DOUBT! Reply with quote

Understood, Joberg.

I'm not in the business. nor am I "The Business" as Rachel said.

Considering the "history" of the original movie's shoot - the t-shirt wars, those who quit or left with extreme feelings, I've no doubt much was intentionally or otherwise forgotten.

That said, I am still hopeful that, among those who are still with us after 35 years, someone DOES actually know and/or WILL eventually relate the story or facts here (even just to gripe a bit), or to someone who might eventually relay it directly or indirectly.

And I have to wonder how much Paul Sammon did NOT include in his book or perhaps has in his notes(?)



Thanks for your response! - R13
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 23, 2017 3:28 pm    Post subject: PLAYING BY THE NUMBERS Reply with quote

DETERMINING DECKARD'S ID NUMBER

No doubt this has been argued elsewhere and countless times online.

In an effort to "get it right", the point was discussed again earlier in another PS thread, when the question arose concerning Deckard's ID number. To my knowledge (and perhaps someone can verify it otherwise) there has never been a definitive answer in the way of a photo reference of Deckard badge/ ID number.

Scripts come and go and even their authenticity can be in question - and there were several drafts, so content changed over the course of the production and in the haste of filming it remains to be discovered what was actually used and what was never to be seen onscreen. Was continuity an issue? And like the various other props, if something is never seen, is it "canon"?

THE NUMBERS GAME
If you listen closely to Ford's dialog from his spinner as he identifies himself to the cop overhead, (like the question regarding "Shimata') - audibly, his delivery is subject to interpretation. Is he saying "B 26354" or "B 260-354"?

Many fan-made IDs and the admittedly non-canon metal LAPD badge that first appeared over a decade ago display the simpler number: B26354. However, in listening, I hear a pause after "two sixty". Ford's delivery, in combination with what i found online and elsewhere years ago appears to be decent proof that "B 260-354" is more probably correct.

TWO POINTS OF REFERENCE
And looking at the design roughs that Tom Southwell did in 1980, during preproduction, several of the cards show hypenated numbers:





As he explained, once approved, he turned them over to the prop department to finalize them. He knew o no changes to the his designs, although things were added (like the red "X" to Deckard's ID) and some had holes punched in them or were distressed or aged appropriately.

Secondly, what images are available seem to support this numerical practice on the cards. In particular, as witnessed at WorldCon - alongside the hero Blaster, a similar POLICE ID used by another character, clearly exhibits a hypenated number, as does Deckard's apartment keycard:


Taken by Karl Tate at WorldCon around 2006


Here showing the keycard before the modifications (holes and Kanji characters) were made.

Although a triangular patch contradicting this was at WorldCon, it appears to never have actually been used in the film and may only be a piece added at a later date to the collection on display. So, short of absolute photo reference of his badge, based on these points, my best "educated" conclusion remains "B260-354".



- R13
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andy
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 23, 2017 9:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

joberg wrote:
I'm with you on that one Dave, but, speaking for myself and having also contacted various Pros that had worked on the first movie (didn't have the chance to talk to the new BR 2049 Pros...yet Wink ), I think that I can come up with 3 possibilities for you (I'm sure you know them as well as me).

Let's recap what could happen to a Pro having worked on BR 2019:

1: Loved it so much that said Pro doesn't mind giving/sharing all that he knows/experienced during principal photography and after.

2: Was just a movie/gig and let's move on. Pro will, from time to time answer some questions, but it's spotty at best.

3: Bad experience during the whole process and will not talk to fans about anything related to BR in general.

There you have it Wink


4-Feel that people are ripping off their work and making money off of it without permission

5-It has been so long that they don't remember much of anything anymore, especially the minute details we are interested in.

6-They are still working in the industry and are too busy for fan's stupid questions

Laughing lol

Thank goodness for people like Tom Southwell.

Andy
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 23, 2017 9:20 pm    Post subject: Re: PLAYING BY THE NUMBERS Reply with quote

Replicant 13 wrote:
DETERMINING DECKARD'S ID NUMBER

No doubt this has been argued elsewhere and countless times online.

In an effort to "get it right", the point was discussed again earlier in another PS thread, when the question arose concerning Deckard's ID number. To my knowledge (and perhaps someone can verify it otherwise) there has never been a definitive answer in the way of a photo reference of Deckard badge/ ID number.

Scripts come and go and even their authenticity can be in question - and there were several drafts, so content changed over the course of the production and in the haste of filming it remains to be discovered what was actually used and what was never to be seen onscreen. Was continuity an issue? And like the various other props, if something is never seen, is it "canon"?

THE NUMBERS GAME
If you listen closely to Ford's dialog from his spinner as he identifies himself to the cop overhead, (like the question regarding "Shimata') - audibly, his delivery is subject to interpretation. Is he saying "B 26354" or "B 260-354"?

Many fan-made IDs and the admittedly non-canon metal LAPD badge that first appeared over a decade ago display the simpler number: B26354. However, in listening, I hear a pause after "two sixty". Ford's delivery, in combination with what i found online and elsewhere years ago appears to be decent proof that "B 260-354" is more probably correct.

TWO POINTS OF REFERENCE
And looking at the design roughs that Tom Southwell did in 1980, during preproduction, several of the cards show hypenated numbers:





As he explained, once approved, he turned them over to the prop department to finalize them. He knew o no changes to the his designs, although things were added (like the red "X" to Deckard's ID) and some had holes punched in them or were distressed or aged appropriately.

Secondly, what images are available seem to support this numerical practice on the cards. In particular, as witnessed at WorldCon - alongside the hero Blaster, a similar POLICE ID used by another character, clearly exhibits a hypenated number, as does Deckard's apartment keycard:


Taken by Karl Tate at WorldCon around 2006


Here showing the keycard before the modifications (holes and Kanji characters) were made.

Although a triangular patch contradicting this was at WorldCon, it appears to never have actually been used in the film and may only be a piece added at a later date to the collection on display. So, short of absolute photo reference of his badge, based on these points, my best "educated" conclusion remains "B260-354".



- R13


I watched the Final Cut a couple nights ago and it sounded for sure like he said 263-54 (no B even), when he talked the spinner cop in the restricted zone. He paused before the number with pursed lips, but no B sound, and the pause in the number came after 263 was read quickly. I kind of wondered if the dialogue was changed and even posed the question to Charles di Lauzirika. At first he agreed that he changed the scene to fit the dialogue, but later said he thought we were talking about the snake lady reading the scale serial number. So hopefully he will get back with more, and I will check out other film versions to see for sure. This all of course fits the theme of the film, with false memories and stuff.

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PostPosted: Thu Nov 23, 2017 10:18 pm    Post subject: ERROR Reply with quote

My mistake in that I referred to old notes. As you said there was no "B" stated. I will be curious to see what you find out, but nonetheless the other props cards still seem to lean toward the hyphenated number. How Ford delivered the line is only a secondary "proof" however much it supports either numeral sequence.

The 'James Jacobson' ID seems to support the hyphenate number as well. And although they had time due to the writer's strike, I do wonder how much continuity was practiced during the actual production, especially with props that were never expected to be scrutinized closely. This was in the days before there was even Betamax or VHS players and the idea of freeze-framed video was not a concern.

- - - - -



Does anyone have any knowledge about the black triangular eagle patch with 26354? I've never seen it shown in any stills from the film, on any of the other officers and since it has a version of Deckard's number, it would be made for him, but I don't think he ever wore anything using it. Makes me think it was either not used or was a fan-produced item added to the collection.

- R13
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 24, 2017 1:52 am    Post subject: Re: ERROR Reply with quote

Replicant 13 wrote:
... support the hyphenate number ...


I am inclined to agree with a hyphenated number not being unlikely.

However, 263-54, which is what I agree with andy is what it sounds like, would also have a hyphen in it.
(To be absolutely precise, it sounds like 2-63-54, but that's a bit beside the point.)

A small argument in favour of that is that none of the hyphenated sequences seen in the material so far have been symmetrical. There's XX-XXXX and XXXX-XXX, but no XXX-XXX. XXX-XX could be seen to be a better fit.

- - - - -

Regarding the triangular eagle patch ... could you point it out? I have trouble finding it in the picture you posted.
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 24, 2017 3:19 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think I can answer a couple questions here. Eltee had told me that police badge numbers and police PIN numbers on their IDs did not match each other. Badge numbers rotated and could even be passed down from father to son in the force. Badge numbers I have seen also seem to rarely be more than 4 digits long, while older ones were only 3 digits. It seems fine that Deckard may have had different numbers with one being hyphenated for the ID, and the other being a badge number. lots of digits on the badge numbers, probably mean the police force is even larger than ever.

As far as the Triangle Eagle patch, it came from the Thinking Cap Company that was owned by none other than Jeff Walker. The man that owned the hero prop, as well as all the props that were photographed by Karl at Worldcon. He was friends with Ridley, and when he did the patches for Alien (the first film he made patches and hats as merchandise for, also for Ridley Scott), he had access to the production art, and even produced a portfolio signed by Ron Cobb and John Mollo as a premium.



I would be very tempted to say that if he used the 25364 number on those patches, he likely got it from something more than what he heard in the film. I even think he made those patches before the film was released, as they were in magazines as part of premier promotion along side of the release of the film. He strayed from making direct replicas of the police patches for this film, probably because of how unusual they were, and they weren't well seen, so he likely went for putting together more iconic images, that the regular fan would know immediately from the film, even if it wasn't actually in the film. The concept was in a way to give fans a piece of the film, an early inexpensive prop replica. Maybe we need to interview Jeff Walker about that number?

Andy
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 24, 2017 3:45 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The black repdetect patch also seems to be loosely based on the police hat badge...





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PostPosted: Fri Nov 24, 2017 3:52 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

(I wrote this as Andy was posting his replies, so I bow to his comments)

Vader -

While I appreciate the idea of a third version XXX-XX, there seems to be nothing at all that supports that, aside from possibly another interpretation of how Ford verbally delivers the line.

As to the triangular patch (below) from Karl Tate's 2006 "MISC" folder -Compared to some other "screen-used" patches I've seen, it looks commercially produced (too pristine?)

THE REP-DETECT PATCH (PROMO or ACTUAL?)


Unlike most of the others displayed, this is shown alone and looks brand new/unused. It is grouped in the MISC folder that - while it includes a single shot of Sebastian colorful coat - contains the remaining pieces from the collection - all appearing unrelated to Blade Runner.
As Andy commented "loosely based". Many patches made available after the film were designs that rather obviously, were not canon (like the Tyrell MHTH patch he shows).

Patches from ALIEN are under the glass, but the focus of the remaining shots is on various small pins or medals. There's no indication what movie they were featured in. Again, no obvious tie to BR.

- R13
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 24, 2017 4:02 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The Worldcon display Karl took photos of belonged to Jeff Walker. I think he included some of his merchandise along side the props to show the connections. He also showed Brett's jacket from Alien with all the patches on it. He also made replica pins to the crew pins on Alien. Jeff worked as a publicist, and may have done so on Blade Runner, and that is how he got his connections to pick up the props, as well as become friends with Ridley. The patch you show there is indeed one of his he made at Thinking Cap Co., There are ones made today which have changed over time. Intergalactic Trading Company sold them for years, and probably started making their own after a while since they were so easy and cheap to produce. Now all kinds of people make them.

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PostPosted: Fri Nov 24, 2017 4:08 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think Andy has covered the provenance of the patch quite well. And bearing in mind the source and his connections, and that the patch with the "26354" number, while a promotional item, actually may have been released even before the film ever hit theatres, it would seem to be a very compelling argument indeed in favour of the un-hyphenated five-digit sequence.

The problem being that none of us have seen a canonical rendition of the number. All we have to go on is Ford's verbal delivery; 2-63-54. There is literally no other canonical source. Hence, putting any hyphens anywhere in it is pure conjecture anyway.

All I'm sayin' is that if we want to have hyphens, we can put them in 26354 as easily as 260354. But as Andy points out in citing Eltee, LAPD numbers having been three digits way back, later on four digits ... in the near future, five digits straight off, no hyphens, seems plausible.
Six digits ... would probably be stretching it.
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 24, 2017 4:10 am    Post subject: EVOLUTION Reply with quote

It's kinda sad now - that the market has become so saturated with knock-offs and redesigns that authenticity has become blurred.

I remember getting my first ALIEN/NOSTROMO cap. What is available now is far removed from even that tweaked version. I only wish some of those were still available.

Thanks for the clarification Andy. ...I agree - It would be good to hear what Walker might reveal . . .

- R13
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 24, 2017 4:24 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I still must point to Southwell's guidelines in producing the ID and other cards - and to that one image from Karl's shoot, showing the actual Jacobson ID, with a hyphenated number. To me THAT is as close as we can now get to actual proof. - R13



For those that replicate the badge, note that on Southwell's sketch of the ID in my earlier post, he clearly identifies the fonts used on the ID. I verified that these are indeed correct to the Jacobson card. There have been many close guesses used, or pure substitutions, but there is really no excuse for getting it wrong.
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 24, 2017 4:39 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Watching the original theatrical cut with the subtitles on right now. The other time Deckard reads off of his badge is after he kills Zhora, and he does indead say it as "B 26354" without any real hesitation in the number. With the subtitles it also reads as "B 26354". In the Restricted zone scene, the subtitles read "26354", no B and still no hyphen for the slight hesitation, and the same as in the Final Cut. I still wonder where the "260-354" sounding number was supposed to come from. I still can't find it.

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PostPosted: Fri Nov 24, 2017 4:45 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

andy wrote:


This particular ad ran in the December 1982 issue of Starlog, but the Rep-Detect cap (with the 26354 patch) was to my knowledge first advertised in an ad on p.39 of the July issue of the same year.

I think we may therefore assume that the items shown are pretty much in their authentic state.

But the official release date of Blade Runner was 25 June 1982, and bearing in mind the time it took to make products like those back in those days, to prepare ads, and then prepare the magazine itself for print -- long before computers and desktop publishing -- the patch must have first been drafted several months before that, long before the theatrical release.

It looks more and more like 26354 may ... stick.
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 24, 2017 4:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Replicant 13 wrote:
I still must point to Southwell's guidelines in producing the ID and other cards - and to that one image from Karl's shoot, showing the actual Jacobson ID, with a hyphenated number. To me THAT is as close as we can now get to actual proof. - R13



For those that replicate the badge, note that on Southwell's sketch of the ID in my earlier post, he clearly identifies the fonts used on the ID. I verified that these are indeed correct to the Jacobson card. There have been many close guesses used, or pure substitutions, but there is really no excuse for getting it wrong.


A real police officer that is also a member here told me that badge numbers, and the numbers on the ID cards do not match with real police. I also checked the shooting script for both scenes I mentioned above, and neither had him reading off his badge or ID number. Unfortunately films aren't often that tidy or consistent with details, and they just hope we don't notice. I guess we could say he had a badge number with no real badge, and a hyphenated ID number that another cop had the same number as... Wink

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PostPosted: Fri Nov 24, 2017 11:50 am    Post subject: CLARIFICATION? Reply with quote

So, if I understand correctly - at this point - we know that the number for the ID card, or one for any badge (which we never saw), seems not to be given in any later script. And if the numbers were on the various pieces, they might well not have matched.

We agree that continuity was not "policed" very well and being before the introduction of home video prop details were not as much of a concern. Ridley just wanted tons of believable graphics to clutter and sell his future environment.

So, I still stand with the reasoning that the number would more likely follow the form shown on Jacobson's ID (that seems to have been totally loyal to Southwell's sketch). For what ever reason the number was changed for Deckard's, but I would reason that the hyphenated form would still be followed.

But I don't quite follow your last comment, Andy(?):
"I guess we could say he had a badge number with no real badge, and a hyphenated ID number that another cop had the same number as."

It would be SO much simpler, if someone in the know would just clear this up.Confused

- R13
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