The Hartford Snubby (picture heavy)

[ericg2216]

Hi all! new to the board. I want in one one of these, fullsize or snubby. Thanks for keeping us informed on these.

[The Loyalizer]

Any news on the release of these Noeland?
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"We began to recognize in them a strange obsession..."

http://fcomin.cgsociety.org/gallery/

[svander]

I spotted a snubby on eBay for around $800.00 - Nuts.

[Noeland]

I just haven't had time to jump into this the way I intended to, and still want to, and at this point I haven't heard from Kato in quite a while.

I saw the auction too, I think that's one of Punchy's other seller names, it looks like one of his auctions anyway.

Yeah, the price stings a bit.

I'll make an effort to get some concrete answers about the blaster production this coming weekend and week, and post what I find out.

Njc---------------
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I don't have enough blasters!

[Masao]

I can't believe they actually called it C.S.!

LOL

[hirohawa]

CS as in "Chiefs Special" - that is a replica Smith and Wesson that Hartford makes.

http://www.sightm1911.com/lib/review/M637.htm

[Noeland]

Yeah, the hartford is built on a smith and wesson chief's special revolver, not a charter arms.

So, it's not a rip off of Rich's gun. Not a single item on the Hartford is taken from Rich's work.

Njc---------
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I don't have enough blasters!

[Masao]

"Whatever you want to believe McCoy..." LOL

Ok, the most obvious item (which doesn't exist of course) is the identical curve in the cocking lever. This "tell" is only on Rich's guns and copies of Rich's guns but never on the original props...so it has no business being on any other gun...unless the gun is a copy of one of Rich's.

BTW the CS stands for Coyle and Steinschiedner...funny that it only appears on guns created after Coyle started calling his 'C&S'.

But what do I know, right?

[Noeland]

The curve in the bolt handle that "doesn't exsist"?

Well by george you've convinced me!

[Masao]

This is what you said: "So, it's not a rip off of Rich's gun. Not a single item on the Hartford is taken from Rich's work."

Since people have been making some authoritative, silly and inaccurate (even strange) claims lately. I had to answer this statement.

The single and obvious thing I was referring to was the bolt handle (handle of the cocking bolt that hangs off the side.)

The real Steyer has a particular bend which matches the curved sideplate on the right-side cylinder cover of the Worldcon or vice versa.



During the years of development in which I worked with Rich, I had mentioned this. He decided not to change it but rather use it as a 'tell'.

A 'tell' is a marker that acts as a signature. If someone decides to copy your work directly or indirectly, the 'tell' would give the copy away. The "how do you know?" defensive posture doesn't cover the guilty party. The 'tells' tell all!

Most models have multiple 'tells'. Most are mistakes, but others are deliberate signatures.

The "short curve" bolt handle is just one 'tell'. Look at the shadow of the curve. It is higher than it should be.





Finally, the difference in material has little to do with being copied. It is now possible to make items from metal from originals that were made in paper or nothing but electrons!

I hope this clears things up.

[KarlBud420]

[Noeland]

I know all about Rich's tells Masao. I've chatted with many people about them, including Craig Kovach. I know what many of the differences between versions are, and I'm well aware he purposefully put in tells. Rich himself has admitted to putting them in there. I've never had an issue with it.

Look at Karl's photos with the bolt handle open on the hero gun. It's bent the same way as Rich's, just not at exactly the same point. The handle has to be bent downward or it would be sticking off away from the side plate if left as it is on the rifle.

The "curve" of the bolt handle as it is on the rifle is NOT the same as it is on the hero gun. It HAD to be bent downward.

I own 3 hartfords, and 2 coyles. A version 3, and a version 4 point something something.

The bolt handle on the hartford is smooth, not as wide, has different contours, and has a very different end. The "scoop" on the end is not quite the same as Rich's.

HERO:


SIDE BY SIDE:


SNUBBY, FULL HF, COYLE:


I think these speak for themselves.

It also illustrates the different in grip frame thickness, grip thickness and contour, and well, QUALITY.

The important thing to remember here is that Kato and the guys at hartford RESPECT RICH a great deal, and they are all stand up honorable guys who have no interest in behaving otherwise.
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I don't have enough blasters!

[Noeland]

I forgot to post this one.



This one shows that the handle isn't as "flaired" and not quite as wide as Rich's, which is cast from the real deal. The HF isn't.

Also shows some of the differences in the right side cover, and the steyr ejection port. The HF shows a lot more of the bolt when viewed this way.

Again, this is the difference between something designed in CAD and then laser cut, versus what's been cast from the real guns.

Hartford wasn't going for screen accurate, BTW, they wanted to make their own signature version of the blaster, based on a gun they'd been making for a long time, a smith and wesson replica.

I've told them more varients like thier snubby would be cool. They generally only do replicas of single action revolvers, and smith and wesson double actions, so I think everyone enjoyed doing something more creative with the snubby gun.
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I don't have enough blasters!

[Masao]

[svander]

[Noeland]

Masao,
You're right about the hero discoveries being a recent thing, but Rich had himself a stunt casting to build from and tool from. Those stunt casting have been bouncing around for years and years and that showed Rich all he needed to know to start his model.

And one look at the stunt guns tells you how to bend the bolt handle, create the side panels, form the grips, etc. I'm not trying to say it's easy, but it's there to see if you know what you're looking at.

I'd like to add that what I know of the film blaster, and it's replicas in one form another, started from my previous friendship with Craig Kovach. I've learned a lot since, but that guy has studied the blaster so closely he could probably teach a college course on the subject. I owe much of my blade runner knowledge to Craig, and probably via Craig, from Rich.

And I don't think anyone is denying the impact Rich and Phil's research and legwork have had on other replicas.

That said, had they not done it, someone else was going to. It could have been any of the blasters fans on this board. I know that I started to research the gun at a young age with every intention of building myself one.

Also like to add I don't think Hartford "improved" the blaster neccesarily. It's a different beast altogether.

I would not be surprised if Hartford sent him a thank you letter, that sounds just like Kato. He's that kind of guy. I would also not be surprised if Rich thought that a thank you letter meant they ripped him off in some way either. hahahaha.


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I don't have enough blasters!

[Masao]

[Once-bitten]

Don't let him draw you out with the same bate and switch tactics that Rich used Noeland...
Hey, this is kinda funny...ME making that suggestion to YOU.

I have an idea, why don't we talk about Noelands AMAZING Hartford and not let this thread get side tracked into a discussion about how great Rich is?

He DID leave didn't he?
GOSH...I really hope the door didn't hit him in the ass on the way out.

[Noeland]

Thanks Paul. I don't mind chatting with him though, and if the thread goes OT I don't mind that either as long as it stays civil and respectful, which I think Masao is treading.

But, we can always remove these posts from the thread and start a new thread in the pit if Tom would like too. I don't feel it would be right to make that call myself.

But I don't mind replying either. So, here we go . . .

[andy]

For the Record, "Chief's Specials" and "CS" have been around as a name for a type of revolver long before Blade Runner. Though I do believe they are short barreled. Maybe Hartford thought that is what Rich was refering to with his name "C&S", and just like so many have used "PKD" they just kept the name going, not knowing what it meant, or where it came from.