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Noeland
Community Guide
Joined: 24 Oct 2006
Posts: 1328
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 Posted: Sat Oct 24, 2009 1:05 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | Calling him a "one trick pony" or that somehow his value is lessened over time cannot diminish what he has accomplished for you |
Rich sells his work for profit. A good profit at that, and God bless him, I appreciate that. I'm a capitalist. He hasn't accomplished anything "for us". Lets be very clear about that.
I also appreciate that you love the guy, but you know that he wasn't banned for unspecified reasons. It wasn't just one thing. It was many things that built up over time.
And we've discussed previously where BR blaster replicas would be if Rich Coyle never made one, haven't we? I don't think the subject needs broaching in this thread.
I would also like to reassure you that it's not about hollywood or status, or anything like that. Rich was a member, he was banned, and his return is a subject that gets brought up again and again from multiple sources.
This is only being put to a vote for that reason, and we will not be doing this again.
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I don't have enough blasters! |
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SLK
Community Member
Joined: 05 Apr 2008
Posts: 180
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| Posted: Sat Oct 24, 2009 1:31 pm Post subject: |
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| Noeland wrote: |
Rich sells his work for profit. A good profit at that, and God bless him, I appreciate that. I'm a capitalist.
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To be fair I have seen what he has to go through to make the metal version. They may be pricey to the buyer but in all fairness he deserves what he gets paid. If I had to go through that process to make a 1 to 5 movie props or prototypes then I would have not have a problem. If I had to make 20, 50, 100 or more...forget it. Too much trouble with common shop tools. I commend him on his die hard approach to that piece. |
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andy
Community Guide
Joined: 01 Nov 2006
Posts: 6237
Location: Rochester, NY
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| Posted: Sat Oct 24, 2009 2:05 pm Post subject: |
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Again for the record. The main reason we are considering lifting Richard's ban is that we originally stated that it was a temporary ban when it happened. We are doing this to be true to our word.
I also agree that Richard puts a lot of work into these models, but part of the reason he does is because he does not plan his molds better so he has less problems later. he uses techniques that are great and quicker for small quantity pieces, but he could save a lot of total time, if he put more time upfront to make them easier to assemble. His experience is from movie model making techniques that are meant to get the first models made fast and spending a long time making the first prototypes in order make better reproductions is not necessary or practical. That means each version will need to be individually fit together giving a lot of variation as well.
It is admirable what he does, but not that practical in making mass quantities. That was the genius of Siderio, that he took Rich's work and figured how to make it simpler and easier to mold and assemble. I worked hard for a truce with those guys so they could work together on this, but too many others took sides, took shots, and also directly and subversively influenced them to stay at odds with each other. It is a shame, because I would have really liked to have seen a team effort between them as well as the board.
Andy |
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eltee
Community Member
Joined: 31 Oct 2006
Posts: 437
Location: West Coast USA
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| Posted: Sat Oct 24, 2009 3:29 pm Post subject: |
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Imagine a Coyle/Siderio blaster... 
Combining the skill, ingenuity, knowledge base, resources, etc. of the two could have been awesome.
If might have been hilarious to be in the room as the two of them argued artistic differences in a mixture of shouted, broken English, Italian, Coylese, etc.  |
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QuasiOdo
Community Member
Joined: 26 Nov 2007
Posts: 25
Location: Cleveland, Ohio
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| Posted: Sat Oct 24, 2009 9:58 pm Post subject: |
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I'm starting to think this is going turn into another crucifixion.
Either let him back on or not.
I fear the longer this goes on, the worse things are going to get. Therefore, personally, I'm done commenting here.
Let the chips fall. |
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clutch
Community Member
Joined: 12 Dec 2006
Posts: 548
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| Posted: Sun Oct 25, 2009 1:41 am Post subject: |
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He also attempted to supress the worldcon photos.  |
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phase pistol
Community Member
Joined: 04 Nov 2006
Posts: 1147
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| Posted: Sun Oct 25, 2009 2:37 am Post subject: |
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I've never been clear on whether Coyle was just stuck in the middle as an innocent bystander (as he claimed at the time), or if Rich was complicit in the fake "takedown request".
k |
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QuasiOdo
Community Member
Joined: 26 Nov 2007
Posts: 25
Location: Cleveland, Ohio
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| Posted: Sun Oct 25, 2009 9:24 am Post subject: |
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Coyle would have had nothing to gain by demanding the pictures be taken down. They were already up for over a week, as I remember, and everyone had already grabbed them.
Maybe the owner of the gun demanded they be taken down. Did anyone check??
Sorry but IMO, if this continues, and Coyle is let back on, certain people seem to be counting on getting him so pissed off that he'll blow up and get banned again.
This poll thread seems to be doing more damage than good at this point.
(Ok, NOW I'm done.) |
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Mr Webber
Community Member
Joined: 13 Apr 2008
Posts: 1824
Location: Terra Australis
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| Posted: Sun Oct 25, 2009 9:58 am Post subject: |
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I think now would be a good time to end this poll, its been up over a week now and only 57 people have bothered to vote, nothing new has come to light and it
has come at a terrible cost to this community.
Although i understand why, still dont know the full details, I am very dissapointed Once Bitten has been banned from this community.
My vote is still for Rich to come back if he wants to and just let things take their natural course, everyone is responsible for the things they post here, thats what the mods are for.
My 1.92 Cents after currency conversion
Tim.
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Formerly offworld66 |
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oldzey
Community Member
Joined: 30 Apr 2007
Posts: 569
Location: Peoria, Illinois
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| Posted: Sun Oct 25, 2009 11:23 am Post subject: |
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I think it's good for people to talk (vent).
This has really brought people out of the woodwork and hopefully has been cathartic.
Maybe in a few months, we will see a repeat of this debate with calls to bring Once-Bitten back. |
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Bwood
Community Member
Joined: 20 Sep 2009
Posts: 843
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| Posted: Sun Oct 25, 2009 11:29 am Post subject: |
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QuasiOdo said, "Either let him back on or not." What other choices are there?  |
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darkknight0667
Community Guide
Joined: 11 Apr 2006
Posts: 799
Location: Land O Lakes, FL
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| Posted: Sun Oct 25, 2009 3:12 pm Post subject: |
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| oldzey wrote: | | Maybe in a few months, we will see a repeat of this debate with calls to bring Once-Bitten back. |
I wouldn't hold my breath on that one. The cases are completely different.
After the four accounts were banned, Paul posted the following on his website:
| Quote: | 10/20/2009
Some of you may or may not be aware of this but for the record, I have QUIT Propsummit for good.
Some of you may be inclined to point out that I was banned from the site and had no choice in the matter, but the truth be told, I am guilty of orchestrating my own dimise there.
There will always be those who think they know better just as there will alway's be those that take things at face value...I think I fall somewhere in between. Regardless, I regret NOTHING that I said or did at that site and bare no I'll will towards anyone there...save perhaps ONE and they know who they are. Feel free to contact me for details! |
So, he says that he's quit PropSummit for good (something we all heard before) and that he was the architect of his own demise (referring to having three spare/sock puppet account?). Sounds a bit like an admission of guilt, doesn't it?
Shortly after he posted this, he went in and edited the post to read as follows (I've highlighted the major change):
| Quote: | 10/20/2009
Some of you may or may not be aware of this but for the record, I have QUIT Propsummit for good.
Some of you may be inclined to point out that I was banned from the site and had no choice in the matter, but the truth be told, I am guilty of orchestrating my own demise there.
There will always be those who think they know better just as there will alway's be those that take things at face value...I think I fall somewhere in between.
Regardless, I regret NOTHING that I said there.
A Friend of mine who was a member there through my IP Address said some pretty harsh things...but I back his play and perhaps they were things that needed to be said. My other friends who were incouraged by me to join there, said and did NOTHING WRONG and were banned because they set up their profiles through my IP address, that is all.
I bare no I'll will towards anyone there...save perhaps ONE and they know who they are.
Feel free to contact me for details! |
So, now they're accounts that belonged to "friends. Hmmm. If these accounts were set up by "friends", then how did Paul "orchestrate" his own demise? Curious. Why haven't these "friends" come forward to Tom to explain how this is all just a big misunderstanding and that the common IP addresses were because they happened to be at Paul's house borrowing his computer when they posted (posts were made from the common IP address, not just account set-ups as Paul claims)? Curiouser. No, it is quite apparent that these accounts were set up by Paul for his own reasons (whatever they are) and that's all there is to that.
As I said above, the cases are completely different. Rich went a little off the deep end, became a PITA to the staff by not keeping his rants in The Pit and then posted some offensive statements. Bannable offenses? Yes. Shady (and possibly nefarious) actions? Not really. Paul created three "spare accounts", used one to back up his attacks on Rich and had who knows what other plans for the others. Bannable offenses? Yes. Shady (and possibly nefarious) actions? Yes, again. One person we'd consider letting back in (hopefully given some assurances that he'd play nicer this time), and the other we would not.
May I go so far as to suggest to anyone else that has "spare accounts" that they find a way to end them right now (come to one of the Community Guides and we'll get the situation taken care of). If we find them, then you too will be banned. We don't care how "valuable" you are to the hobby, these kinds of shenanigans are not tolerated here. There is no good and reputable reason for anyone to have more than one account, so if you have more than that, we'll presume you're up to no good and show you the door.
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Pete |
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oldzey
Community Member
Joined: 30 Apr 2007
Posts: 569
Location: Peoria, Illinois
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| Posted: Sun Oct 25, 2009 5:11 pm Post subject: |
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| Thanks for the clarification, Pete! |
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eltee
Community Member
Joined: 31 Oct 2006
Posts: 437
Location: West Coast USA
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| Posted: Sun Oct 25, 2009 6:32 pm Post subject: |
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| clutch wrote: | | He also attempted to supress the worldcon photos. |
He probably didn't do it unilaterally. IIRC there were other players involved with the old "unhappy higher ups" yadayada. More importantly, Richard found a fish on his porch wrapped up in a NY Times and this note was included
Hey, even it was another "only Richard Coyle phenomenon" what has it got to do with banning / unbanning in this case?
I agree with others. There's been plenty of campaigning for both sides of the issue. IMHO there should be a cutoff date, a count and a decision. Then, (assuming he gets invited back) if Coyle chooses to come back and control himself, fine. |
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Mr Webber
Community Member
Joined: 13 Apr 2008
Posts: 1824
Location: Terra Australis
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| Posted: Sun Oct 25, 2009 6:53 pm Post subject: |
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Yes, thanks for the details, i thought someone should mention the elephant in the room.
I have not contacted OB or visited his site as i have my own little issue at the moment but as i said earlier, we are all responsible for what we post here and elsewhere about here, enough said.
oldzey wrote:
| Quote: | | This has really brought people out of the woodwork |
Exactly and this is generally a negative and unproductive experience.
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Formerly offworld66 |
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steevy
Community Member
Joined: 25 Jul 2007
Posts: 389
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| Posted: Sun Oct 25, 2009 8:13 pm Post subject: |
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| Take down the poll it has been up long enough.Rich can come back if he wants and stay if he behaves himself.Let's get back to the friendly board we were before this poll opened some old wounds.Really this site has remarkably little strife compared to others I've taken part in over the years.This dustup is easy enough to settle. |
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darkknight0667
Community Guide
Joined: 11 Apr 2006
Posts: 799
Location: Land O Lakes, FL
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| Posted: Sun Oct 25, 2009 8:32 pm Post subject: |
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| oldzey wrote: | | Thanks for the clarification, Pete! |
You're very welcome. Please feel free to hit any one of the Guide up (either publicly or privately) anytime you need clarification on something like this (this goes for any of the members). We'll be more than happy to clear things up as best we can. Transparency of operations is one of the things we strive for here (and the lack of it is what drives many of us nuts about the way some other places are run).
_________________
Pete |
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Masao
Community Member
Joined: 18 Jun 2007
Posts: 143
Location: USA
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| Posted: Mon Oct 26, 2009 1:55 am Post subject: |
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| Noeland wrote: |
Rich sells his work for profit. A good profit at that, and God bless him, I appreciate that. I'm a capitalist. He hasn't accomplished anything "for us". Lets be very clear about that.
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Oh really? Sure he sells them...intended for profit, but that 'Good Profit' would not pay for the project. If we are going to be clear, let's be crystal clear. That project was never taken to an elaborate extreme, as it stands now, without him. He didn't change things because he was "the world's biggest BR fan or the fact that BR is the greatest blockbuster ever!" No. Neither are true. He did it because of you, the fans. Initially, he didn't want to "Proud up" the blaster too much because that would have compromised its provenance. He wouldn't have done any of this on his own. It took YEARS of suggestions and boots to the rear to get him to budge on that.
As for the specific profit, there is not a company in the world who would have made the blaster without Coyle's influence. Extreme opinion? No. Just count the number of companies to build a blaster as elaborate as his...before he did it. That's right, the count is zero.
| Noeland wrote: | | I also appreciate that you love the guy, but you know that he wasn't banned for unspecified reasons. It wasn't just one thing. It was many things that built up over time. |
So far, I have stated no personal opinions about Coyle himself, so I would thank you not to attack me based on your own bias. I have made factual statements about his work.
Neither my opinion, nor anyone's opinion of him, as a person, is the issue. The issue is as an asset to this community.
Yes, I noticed that it was not just one thing that got him banned. Many here seemed to delight in provoking him to that point. I see no reason for members who have provoked him to get away with not getting banned themselves.
| Noeland wrote: | | And we've discussed previously where BR blaster replicas would be if Rich Coyle never made one, haven't we? I don't think the subject needs broaching in this thread. |
It seems that it does, lest you forget your own history.
| Noeland wrote: | I would also like to reassure you that it's not about hollywood or status, or anything like that. Rich was a member, he was banned, and his return is a subject that gets brought up again and again from multiple sources.
This is only being put to a vote for that reason, and we will not be doing this again. |
Then let's treat the subject as such. I have read more than I care to read about your drooling over Sidkits. You despise Coyle as the evil, money grubber who is charging you too much (but somehow manages to sell the blaster for less than it is worth) and complains when all his hard work is undermined by people who see a quick $$. OK, I get that.
The part I don't get is why there is no tolerance for the guy who was wronged.
I choose my own opinions. If you can prove your case to me, I believe you. If not, I won't. This goes for anyone here...including Coyle.
I saw those parts that are at the heart of the provocation of members here. I also saw the original parts being made. I know what a 'tell' is. If that was a justification for provoking him, you should be banned for life.
I am your best witness in this topic. It is inappropriate to attack me for what I am telling you or dismiss me because of your own opinions.
So, let's please stay on topic. |
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Masao
Community Member
Joined: 18 Jun 2007
Posts: 143
Location: USA
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| Posted: Mon Oct 26, 2009 2:16 am Post subject: |
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| andy wrote: | | I also agree that Richard puts a lot of work into these models, but part of the reason he does is because he does not plan his molds better so he has less problems later. he uses techniques that are great and quicker for small quantity pieces, but he could save a lot of total time, if he put more time upfront to make them easier to assemble. His experience is from movie model making techniques that are meant to get the first models made fast and spending a long time making the first prototypes in order make better reproductions is not necessary or practical. That means each version will need to be individually fit together giving a lot of variation as well. It is admirable what he does, but not that practical in making mass quantities. |
Without giving too much away, the expedient way of manufacturing as suggested above, might work well with $150,000 injection machines and $10,000 molds- for every part. And, if you are willing to put up a million $$ or more for the project, sure, that might really work.
For you to do in a small shop is impracticable!
Of course the other factor is that awful nuisance -provenance. Yes, Coyle could have made the the blaster cheaper and easier to assemble, he did in fact! For over a decade, he has offered his $25-$50 dummy model. Very few ever sell! -You don't like that one!! You have to have the most elaborate and accurate model possible. Who in the world makes that??
| andy wrote: | | That was the genius of Siderio, that he took Rich's work and figured how to make it simpler and easier to mold and assemble. |
Hmmm. In a nutshell!
| andy wrote: | I worked hard for a truce with those guys so they could work together on this, but too many others took sides, took shots, and also directly and subversively influenced them to stay at odds with each other. It is a shame, because I would have really liked to have seen a team effort between them as well as the board.
Andy |
All appreciated Andy, but it was never meant to be. I also saw Coyle trying for this as it would have been beneficial to him.
Last edited by Masao on Mon Oct 26, 2009 2:25 am; edited 1 time in total |
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The Loyalizer
Community Member
Joined: 08 Oct 2007
Posts: 742
Location: Down in 4th Sector, Chinatown
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| Posted: Mon Oct 26, 2009 2:22 am Post subject: |
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| Masao wrote: | | For over a decade, he has offered his $25-$50 dummy model. Very few ever sell! -You don't like that one!! |
Are you talking about the stunt version he made that came with the trigger guard, triggers, grips, buttplate, and steyr magazine as separate pieces?
I have one of those and I have to admit it comes together quite nicely for a static kit.
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