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Phoenixent
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 17, 2012 7:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

racprops wrote:
Well I too worked in Hollywood and found that with a shooter they was plenty of down time for a reloading and that almost ever load was scene special, say a two shot for "scene one" then a new set up for the next take, which always takes longer that the reloading and again only the number of rounds that the scene calls for.

Take a normal action scene: Hero fires two to his front..he get two rounds.

Then they set up for him to turn and fire three to his right..he gets three rounds.

Then they set up for him to turn completely around and fire one to his rear, again only one round.

They do not like to load more rounds that needed to each set up and scene.

Rich


That all depends on the film and how many weapons you have to load up and it's still on the fly no matter if it a Beretta 92F or a Colt M4
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racprops
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 17, 2012 7:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

From that picture the hole in the cover looks larger that the hole in the frame and I can see NO threads cut into it from the bottom.

The second started hole might have happened when he was drilling the side cover and hit the arm.

That is a interesting picture one I did not get in any of the sets I have.

Do you have any more unseen pictures your willing to share?

Rich
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racprops
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 17, 2012 7:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well as I have build one with that screw it only adds a couple of seconds to spin it off and then pop out the cylinder and then snap it closed and spin it back in and tighten.

It is as easy as loading a few rounds by hand unless your using speed loaders and on this prop a speed loader would not fit pass the grip anyway.

So hand loading was the only way.

Rich
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Phoenixent
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 17, 2012 7:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

racprops wrote:
From that picture the hole in the cover looks larger that the hole in the frame and I can see NO threads cut into it from the bottom.

The second started hole might have happened when he was drilling the side cover and hit the arm.

That is a interesting picture one I did not get in any of the sets I have.

Do you have any more unseen pictures your willing to share?

Rich


I will check and see on the photo. If you notice the 4-40 hole in the receiver has a wall thickness of about .075 no threads. This is clearly a error in construction along with the drill start from the lower hole. The Hero has several mistakes like that due to a rushed construction that happens all the time in the film business.
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racprops
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 17, 2012 7:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

There should be no threads in the frame...the screw goes though both the side cover and the frame and threads into the same 4/40 threaded swing arm hole the top screw that holds the side cover.

I think I see what your misunderstood how this is being done, the screw comes in though the right side cover and then the frame and then screws into the arm from the right side.

That then pulls the arm tight to the frame from the right side cover.

So you have to make sure the left side cover screw is short enough to allow the screw from the right side cover to also use the same hole, which I did on my shooting models.

And tell me about rush work...

Check out my web site www.racprops.com

Rich
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andy
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 17, 2012 7:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote




They line up on the other side of the crane.

Plus, like I said before the reason the cover does not look like it lines up is because it is loose and pulling away from the side. I also have a hard time believing that it would be considered in any way safe that a small spring loaded pin on one side of the cylinder is good enough to hold the forces of any amount of explosive powder, even in a blank. Plus the second retention point would be important to keep the chamber aligned with the barrel. Even for blanks I think this could be dangerous since it would prevent the explosive gasses from heading out the barrel, and blow back toward the shooter out the side.

Doc3D knew this, other gunsmiths have pointed it out how important this is to us.

Andy
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Phoenixent
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 17, 2012 9:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

andy wrote:


They line up on the other side of the crane.

Plus, like I said before the reason the cover does not look like it lines up is because it is loose and pulling away from the side. I also have a hard time believing that it would be considered in any way safe that a small spring loaded pin on one side of the cylinder is good enough to hold the forces of any amount of explosive powder, even in a blank. Plus the second retention point would be important to keep the chamber aligned with the barrel. Even for blanks I think this could be dangerous since it would prevent the explosive gasses from heading out the barrel, and blow back toward the shooter out the side.

Doc3D knew this, other gunsmiths have pointed it out how important this is to us.

Andy


Well Andy. There are several models of revolvers that are only retained by the center pin on the revolver. You can speculate all you want and the other gunsmith on here can say what he wants. But film weapons are modified to use blanks only due to the pressure is completely different in blanks compared to a live round. Also we don't even know what loads were used in the original Hero during filming. Not to take anything away from this gunsmith but does he know how these weapons are modified to work with blanks? I know that the stuff we do to those weapons would make a real world gunsmith cringe in fear.
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andy
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 17, 2012 9:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

How many of them are 44s and have the space the gasses would escape around the cylinder blocked by add on parts? Maybe they just put in pyro in the barrel wired back through his sleeve if we are speculating. The lining up of the holes is just way too much of a coincidence though.

Andy
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racprops
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 17, 2012 9:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well I was working at The Hand Prop Room and Harvey our gun smith was changing recoil springs to lighter springs and putting in restricters to get auto loading and automatic weapons to cycle the bolts and rounds, so yes I kind of do know what is done.


The problem is in cutting off the cartridge injector of the Bulldog you lose the cone front lock that engages the frame aliening and holding the cylinder in place.

One builder made a new locking ring and machined his Bulldog to reinvent the front lock.

We believe that this side screw lock is what was done on the film and it seems to work. Other wise why drill a hole there in the frame...I never needed one for my dummy model build.

It only can be there to use this locking system. And it matches up with the large flat screw on the right side.

And the replacement of the screw with the weaver knob makes sense as they unloaded it after all was done and perhaps lost the screw, other wise what take a screw off to replace it with a dumb knob??

But lose the screw and you look for something to fill that hole.

Yes it takes a couple of seconds to use, but not all that much.

And it does make for a very improved safe gun.

One last thought, it also make reloading the gun a secret...not just anyone can pop it open and reload it.

You have to know how.

Rich
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racprops
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 17, 2012 9:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

andy wrote:
How many of them are 44s and have the space the gasses would escape around the cylinder blocked by add on parts? Maybe they just put in pyro in the barrel wired back through his sleeve if we are speculating. The lining up of the holes is just way too much of a coincidence though.

Andy


One thing I have said IF you only load a couple of rounds you have provided the empty chambers for gas blow by, and look how much opening the is on the left side at the top next to the rod.

And then add in the opening under the cocking lever..HOW much venting do you need??

Lastly the 44 is NOT a very hot round it is a light loaded round. Low speed too.

And I am sure the pryo rounds were loaded for flash and not for bang.

Rich
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andy
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 17, 2012 10:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I am sorry if I am doubting you Phoenixent, it is just that I want to see some real evidence to back up your claim.

Andy
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racprops
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 17, 2012 10:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think he is right on with most film productions, costing ANY delay can get you in big trouble.

BUT I do think there is too much evidence to this being the working system on this prop, and remember as far as we can find out there was only on hero prop, so making sure it did not fail on set was also very important and a correctly fitting and working cylinder to barrel match helps insure that it works every time.

Rich
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Phoenixent
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 17, 2012 10:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

andy wrote:
I am sorry if I am doubting you Phoenixent, it is just that I want to see some real evidence to back up your claim.

Andy


Just check your PM.....

I truly doubt most on this site as knowing how the industry works
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Phoenixent
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 17, 2012 10:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

racprops wrote:
andy wrote:
How many of them are 44s and have the space the gasses would escape around the cylinder blocked by add on parts? Maybe they just put in pyro in the barrel wired back through his sleeve if we are speculating. The lining up of the holes is just way too much of a coincidence though.

Andy


One thing I have said IF you only load a couple of rounds you have provided the empty chambers for gas blow by, and look how much opening the is on the left side at the top next to the rod.

And then add in the opening under the cocking lever..HOW much venting do you need??

Lastly the 44 is NOT a very hot round it is a light loaded round. Low speed too.

And I am sure the pryo rounds were loaded for flash and not for bang.

Rich


Again it's is unknown what loads were used on the show. That makes a big difference to how everything works. Again for most this was never meant to fire live rounds so they did not have to worry about any side blast from the gap between the cylinder and barrel..
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andy
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 18, 2012 12:13 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Got your PM Phoenixent. Responded in same.

Thank you,
Andy
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Robotprops
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 18, 2012 3:21 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Chiming in:
Phoenixent, Saying that "I truly doubt most on this site as knowing how the industry works" is brash and naive of you. The bulk of people on this site are the most informed and educated people in and around the film industry that I've had the pleasure to acquaint myself with.
Some of us are retired film workers. Some of us are going strong. Some of us are movie buffs who have been captured by the mystique around Blade Runner.
There are few who appear on this site claiming to know more than those who have painstakingly researched the minutiae of the movie and it's props than the real fans.
The original gunsmith was just that. A GUNSMITH. A craftsman. Everything would be built to line up and work perfectly.

YES: in the course of filming something may have failed and slight modifications would have to be made. I've always believed that the wires on the left were originally hidden but had to be repositioned on the spot. This may have been due to water damage or faulty wiring or what have you. Thus exposing them for the hero insert shot against the concrete wall with the rain.
This would also give evidence to what we already know; there was only one hero blaster. Otherwise they would have swapped out the back-up for the hero to get the macro insert.

To say that "on the fly" the entire workings and safety of the gun were compromised to get it done to save production money is reckless. Safety is the number one concern and no amount of money is worth a human life. No prop master or gunsmith would let an unsafe blank firing weapon on set.

We don't need to bring up Brandon Lee. Completely different scenario.
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joberg
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 18, 2012 7:38 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Phoenixent, as any artist/builder/gunsmith you know that there are many ways to cook a chicken. While some gunsmith handling that hero gun would cringe, others would find another way to render that weapon safe for the set with an idea that none of us had thought about before.
While the pics of the hero show clearly what had been done (at the time) with the weapon, there's still the unknown surrounding the type of loading and blanks they used. Even the slotted screw has been changed (maybe lost during or after the movie) Confused
As for the venting, look closely at the movie, Harrison nor Shean are shooting more than one round (in every takes and behind the scene stuff, I didn't see more than the one shot).
If your barrel has just one round, as you know, the gases will disperse in the empty chamber/space left inside the gun (without forgetting the most important: the barrel itself).
Addressing the comment that most of us on this board are not familiar, nor pro handling/shooting/transforming guns for the Industry is somewhat of an elitist one at best; never think that a passionate individual doesn't do his/her homework concerning that passion. Talking to pros/amateurs along the years, I discovered that most of the time, you can't tell them apart Wink
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racprops
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 18, 2012 8:18 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

One of the curses of working within film is you learn how things are done.

I don't know how many times I have dropped out of a film by my seeing a little bit of filming: IE: A hero with a automatic pistol fires two round to his front and his auto locks open on the empty chamber only a split second (seemly) later to fire three rounds to his right AND AGAIN THE SLIDE LOCKS OPEN and again in what is film time a split second later he fires again...

Problem is not loading a dummy round to at least allow the side to cycle fully and/or the failure of the film editor to cut tighter so to not show the weapon locking open on a empty chamber...

OR the 6 shooter that can fire 20 times without a reload...

These mistake are caused by the practice of only loading the number of rounds each set up calls for.

When these happen I then no longer see a film but a string of filming set ups.

Rich
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Phoenixent
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 18, 2012 12:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Robotprops wrote:
Chiming in:
Phoenixent, Saying that "I truly doubt most on this site as knowing how the industry works" is brash and naive of you. The bulk of people on this site are the most informed and educated people in and around the film industry that I've had the pleasure to acquaint myself with.
Some of us are retired film workers. Some of us are going strong. Some of us are movie buffs who have been captured by the mystique around Blade Runner.
There are few who appear on this site claiming to know more than those who have painstakingly researched the minutiae of the movie and it's props than the real fans.
The original gunsmith was just that. A GUNSMITH. A craftsman. Everything would be built to line up and work perfectly.

YES: in the course of filming something may have failed and slight modifications would have to be made. I've always believed that the wires on the left were originally hidden but had to be repositioned on the spot. This may have been due to water damage or faulty wiring or what have you. Thus exposing them for the hero insert shot against the concrete wall with the rain.
This would also give evidence to what we already know; there was only one hero blaster. Otherwise they would have swapped out the back-up for the hero to get the macro insert.

To say that "on the fly" the entire workings and safety of the gun were compromised to get it done to save production money is reckless. Safety is the number one concern and no amount of money is worth a human life. No prop master or gunsmith would let an unsafe blank firing weapon on set.

We don't need to bring up Brandon Lee. Completely different scenario.


Well.. The reason I said that is a fact the how many film industry gunsmiths are on here. I know there are several prop builders on this site but an industry gunsmith I would say you have none until now.

We know the a there was only one build and that would be either due to production being cheap with is not the case or the propmaster missed his mark on the budget and only opted for one.

As for the propmaster knowing if the weapon was safe or not is highly unlikely as most only know how they work and how to load and not the mechanics of said weapons. After all it was a propmaster that caused the Brandon Lee incident and if you were in the industry you would know that.

As for Branko few people knew him and I am one of those few.....
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Phoenixent
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 18, 2012 12:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

If I offend some here I am sorry but it goes both ways and some took offense at me in what they consider the Holy Grail..
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